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It is sad when we try so hard to preserve a “right” to beat our kids.

Sally Lieber has obviously not counted the cost of allowing children free reign in their formative years before the age of 5. The cost is millions of dollars spent on imprisonment, court costs, substance abuse counseling, mental health issues - including counseling, medication, and sometimes hospitalization - and health care for the disenfranchised children raised in single parent homes because irresponsible children become irresponsible adults who cannot hold marriages together. It is not every day that every child needs his or her covered (with clothing) bottom tapped with a wooden spoon, but once in a while, it is necessary to establish the natural “pecking order” of authority.

Tiffany, reasonable spanking is not beating and it is offensive that you would equate a parent who lovingly disciplines their child with child abuse.

To call things that are not child abuse is to cheapen the meaning of child abuse and does harm to children who are really being abused.

There are a wide range of respectable opinions on spanking. How would you like it if the government were to tell you that spanking is in the “best interest of children” and therefore you are abusing or neglecting your child if you don’t use it?

If we go to “best interest of the child” over the parental rights doctrine we’ll be leaving these personal family decisions up to politics. Whoever controls government controls these decisions.

Robert Surgenor (name may not be spelled correctly) does some excellent work on the spanking issue. There is continued confusion on the issue because experts use statistics on abuse to try and justify their stand/position on spanking. But spanking (corporal punishment) is not abuse. Either the act is abuse (a crime) or correction (not a crime and not violent). Parents are utilizing just one of the tools available to them for correction, just like officers use necessary “force” as a tool available to them. And, if parents fail to do their job, I assure you, officers use “necessary force” to maintain order and control on the children who grow up and who have not learned to “obey” in this society. Little children who do not learn to respect authority grow up to be adults who do not learn to respect authority. If they missed their “beatings” while they are young, then the police will resolve the problem when the children become adults.

Parents need to be allowed to be parents with the tools necessary to get the job done.

I second that Rich, loving patient discipline is nowhere near abuse in any way. I was abused as a child by my dad and I have broken that cycle with my own children and I discipline them with patience and love, realising that it is not revenge against what they have done but I am helping them to be self controled, loving little people who will go out in the world and have good things to give.

I feel sorry for people who think that discipline is abuse because it is probably what they do to their own kids because they see no difference between the two.

I would agree that the California bill is overreaching and should be opposed. Such legislation would be a clear erosion of parental rights, and an invitation for uncertain and even abusive enforcement. However, I think by the same argument, the public schools should not be allowed to use physical discipline on children. If it is allowed at all, it is an invitation to misuse and abuse, which would result in limiting legislation, that would only strengthen the move to extend the same coverage to children at home. Better to say NO to all non-parental physical discipline.

I have a larger concern, though, which is the continuing belief by Christians that physical discipline is somehow biblically mandated by God, a misguided view that I believe drives many of the strongest and most vocal supporters of spanking. Arguably, it is Christians who are the primary defenders of “spanking,” a cultural expression of physical discipline that has no biblical counterpart (rodding is on the back of a young adult or an adult with a heavy stick). Every time I hear the “obey God rather than man” argument raised up in defense of spanking little children, I see our credibility as Christians in the public square unnecessarily eroded and opened up to more ridicule. In my view, it is for a belief that is indefensible if the Scriptures are properly translated and understood.

In the necessary movement to preserve parental freedoms, even the freedom to “spank” for disciplinary reasons, let’s be very careful never to suggest that we somehow speak for God when it comes to physical discipline of young children. When the Bible mentions physical discipline with a rod, it is always about a young man (16-20), not a young child. Of the eight passages in Proverbs that associate the rod and discipline, four are clearly about adults, and four are about a “young man” (a naar). The rod in Scripture is never associated with a young child. And for those who insist on being biblically literal with a “young man,” then it should be a rod on the back, not a paddle on the bottom. However, I would also argue that Proverbs should be interpreted as wisdom, not as commands.

I realize the divine mandate (”God said it”) argument for physical discipline has not been made in this post, but it is nonetheless an unspoken argument every time this matter comes up in a Christian context. Before we make the case for the right of parents to use physical discipline on their children, let’s be sure we don’t intentionally or unintentionally invoke God’s name in defense of spanking young children. He is silent about the matter. Let’s make the case for the parental right to use reasonable physical discipline based on consitutional, legal, and cultural arguments, not on ultimately indefensible arguments about presumed divine authority. God gives us the freedom to spank our children, if we feel so led by the Spirit, but spanking young children is clearly NOT God’s idea. It’s ours. Let keep it that way.

There are numerous ways to discipline without laying a hand to a child Lisa. Spanking is a truly weak recourse. I am for preserving parental rights but those rights should not include a right to hurt our kids. There is nothing LOVING about spanking.

Tiffany, this is the wrong place to start an argument. It is obvious that you do not agree with God’s ways of disciplining children. But let’s lay our differences aside and walk in agreement that we parents have the greatest authority over how we raise our children, not the government. United we stand, divided we fall.

People without solid parenting tools use questionable interpretations of the “spare the rod” scripture in the Bible as excuses to physically intimidate their children into submission. God has nothing to do with it.

I’m truly astonished and disappointed that HSLDA supports hitting children (regardless of with hand or object) or that the organization would oppose a ban on child abuse.

I’m an avid homeschooler who defends my right to autonomy over my children, but there are areas where parents do not have rights, such as when it comes to hurting children, no matter how they justify it and regardless of relation. It is NOT an intrinsic right to hurt children. Where would that leave the child’s rights?

If legislation comes out that imposes stricter penalties on fathers who have sex with their daughters, should we oppose that, too? Be reasonable. Parents rights over their children are not (and should not be) completely limitless.

Spanking is abuse, NOT discipline and NOT God’s way.

Spanking teaches children that it is okay for bigger people to hit you, but only if you’re a child; it teaches that violence is an effective way to solve problems.

Many parents have found ways to create peaceful, kind, behaved children without hitting them. Those of you who “lovingly” hit your kids should find some alternative techniques and use them. They work.

Finally, some of the arguments here in support of spanking are laughable. If you don’t spank kids, they’ll end up criminals? Um, no, I wasn’t spanked and I’m an upstanding, successful citizen. You think you broke the cycle of abuse because you “lovingly” spank, Lisa? No, you’ve just changed the name. Hitting is hitting. Being spanked physically hurts and emotionally hurts…just like being smacked across the face or being kicked in the shins. Period.

God bless us all.

God bless all of you.

Well written Christe! I’ll second all of that! There are many other options, and they do work. Our children are ours to guide not punish. They come through us but do not belong to us. They have rights too, and I believe one of them is to not be hit. You wouldn’t put up with this from anyone else in your life would you?

Nancy, Jesus was the greatest teacher ever. Did he spank children?

The rod spoken of in the Bible is the same rod sheep herders used to “guide” their flock. They did not hit or spank their sheep! So hello….the rod means guiding and instructing.

Ugh…I hate it when people make spanking out to be Biblical. That is so gross.

Beautifully said Christie. Parental rights should NOT be limitless and hurting our children should not be a right.

When is it time to hit a child? NEVER! Having been a child who was hit as “discipline” - I know that it is just wrong - on so many levels. It only taught me to fear - not anything about what I had done that justified that violent action against me. I never deserved it. I was a good kid and would have responded from a heartfelt conversation. It never teaches the child to “behave’ it robs them of trust… in humanity - when the one who is meant to protect you starts hitting you - worse yet pull down your pants (which is a sexual thing) to spank you - open handed, with a fist, with an object - any way you do it is psychologically damaging to the child.
Especially, if they are reasonable kids who are very sensitive - then it become torture - because they want to do what is best and they need love, support, and understanding to do the right thing. Once you hit them they don’t think more clearly… they only begin to mistrust everything you have done to build trust with them. It made me a pacifist - it made me leave home and never look back. It never taught me anything but how NOT to raise kids.
Also, if you want honesty from your child - don’t punish them when they lie. That will make them continue to lie and never get them to consider their actions - when you use force you take away the learning from them - even if they do what you say - it won’t come from them wanting to do it. It takes longer to be patient - have them face life’s consequences with you - not against you because you just punish them instead of giving them tools and understanding to deal with things better. Force does not teach anything but survival and the child must choose to do what they are told and become a victim to others (as a pattern in life) or they rebel for their own sense of worth - they want to choose to do what is best for them and so they rebel - and rightfully so. Force takes the lesson away from them to choose. Be the one they come to when they are stuck - not the one they hide it from - while they go to someone who knows how to talk it out and come up with some good things to do to resolve things… we want to raise kids who can solve their problems… not become victims to other bullies besides their parents or become rebels who have trust in nothing and no one because it was beat out of them. So it isn’t even how hard it is done or if it is done with a tool or not - hitting breaks the trust between a child and parent that the parents will take care of them. We must model the behavior we want in our kids and if you hit them for any reason - especially when they are misbehaving. That is the time they need to see a patient loving parent talking about their behavior and that it is not who they are and that there are consequences for their behavior - better yet you agree on the way to solve the problem with taking on responsibility for it and dealing with it - with the parent’s support for making the situation better and growing from it. That’s life, that’s what we are here for. Not to confuse our kids with “It’s OK for me to hit you but not OK for you to hit your sister or anyone else.” This is the kind of behavior - even if just a spanking on the bottom with clothes on - that puts people in therapy after a few divorces. We need to learn from our mistakes gracefully. A parent needs to model this for their kids - it’s all about growing and this is not a right we need to protect. We need to come up with our own judging system for what makes a good parent.
I am not comfortable with the post 911 laws combined with this law - the government needs to stop being the bully getting bullies… they need to model kindness and understanding too - just like we are asking parents to be.
I say, let write a bill on parent’s rights and pass work to pass that.
This reminds me all too well and makes me laugh a bit that a government that doesn’t understand if what they are doing is torture or not… should not be deciding if we are torturing our kids or not. We need to do the opposite - let’s write and pass a bill for parent’s rights - not the right to hit our kids. The right to home school should not be combined with the right to hit them. That’s where this organization lost me. So instead, write a new bill that talks about what we want - not what we don’t want and by the way God does not want us hitting or kids for any reason… he told me himself… he wants every one to be more patient and loving and understanding toward them leading them to solutions for their mistakes… as our Father - he never did hit any of us to punish us. Life has consequences and he is there to support us through our confusion. Let me tell yaw, he is not OK with people who do wrongfully towards others - especially children - for any reason - and say he said it was OK or worse yet that God told them to do it. God it love - and he is not OK with hitting anyone – he knows it never leads to understanding. He is and fills our hearts with infinite continuous love. We need to grow up as a society and talk things out with everyone we have conflicts with and find solutions together. When we say, “Use your words - not your fists!” like preschools often teach kids – and then they go home and get hit for any reason… even a so called harmless spanking - you are telling them very loudly to use their fists - not their words - even if while you are hitting them you are telling them to use their words which again will lead them to therapy… because it is crazy making behavior. If they are fortunate enough to understand it is really a huge contradiction and find someone to act like a parent for them and talk it out – because their parents are not able to – apparently or they would and not spank or hit them. The good news it that bully behavior is on its way out because bullies are beginning to see that it hurts THEM to act that way. Yes it’s true, this is going to hurt me more than you… is really true. The parents become more and more off balance by the contradiction until the kids are old enough to hit back. Then they do, or they leave home knowing the people there were very confused. Remember, ones who feel that this is “God’s Punishment” that the meek shall inherit the Earth… and it wasn’t the meek to hit their kids… no the meek are the ones who talk it out with their kids and keep their heart connected. That’s what all of life is about. Keeping hearts connected. Hitting is a huge disconnect and although they still love you after you hit them - trust me - if they have any sense of self worth left in them - they are planning their escape and you have lost them to bad judgment - YOURS - for not being there when they needed your support. You were too busy trying to prove being “right” and justifying your violent actions towards the gift that God has blessed you with… every child is a gift and when you hit them both the parent and the child forget that fact… and as the behavior continues… a battle of wills is formed and that fact is more and more lost on the circumstances.
Love is so much more powerful than fear. I know many of you know this and perhaps even agree.. I just think it needed to be said to balance this out.
Hitting is highly counter-productive and psychologically damaging yet so it our government with this war… so how do you tell bullies not to bully the other bullies who are raising kids? It’s time to focus on what we want… not what we don’t want - with our government and our kids.

I second that short sweet answer Nancy! Well said!

I agree that the Bible does not speak directly about spanking, but it does not speak about not spanking either, or on many other modern issues. Evangelical Christians beleive that abortion is fundamentally, morally and ethically wrong, yet the Bible does not speak specifically on that issue either. Proof-texting on either side of the spanking issue is completely bogus and completely out of line. God is silent on the point, period, so please stop saying that either side is incorrect according to God. Stop putting “words in God’s mouth.”

That said, if you truly believe in the rights of a parent, which I believe each of us here can agree upon on a general level, how can any of you say that the way in which I choose to raise my children is right or wrong? And how can you assert that I was abused and psychologically damaged because my parents spanked me? How dare you call me psychologically damaged or assert that I did not experience love from my dad and mom.

I would like to know how any of you who refuse to spank your children teach them consequences…and if any of you has ever indeed raised a strong-willed child for which absolutely no method of discipline works at all times. Yes, there are many methods of discipline…believe me, I’ve tried many of them having raised such a child…but I have found nothing that gains the respect of a child more than an appropriate swat when they are so deserving. Spanking for my wife and I has nothing whatsoever to do with creating fear our son, but advocates respect.

None of us can make blanket statements here, because all individuals are different–an all children are different and require different courses of discipline. To completely rule it out or condemn a parent who employs such methods, though, is judgemental and accusatory at best.

That said, allow me to make a blanket statement. Statistics, surveys and simple general knowledge show very clearly that in the past several decades as parental, and albeit authority figures’ rights were removed, there was a rise in violent crime, drug usage, truancy, educational drop-outs, homelessness, sexual abuse, etc. Children with no respect for authority tend to lean towards inappropriate behavior.

My father was a school principal for 35 years before he passed away last year. When he became unable to utilize corporal punishment in his schools, a pattern of progressively more unruly behavior ensued. The government has tied the hands of our educationally-based authority figures…will we allow them to do the same with us as parents? Moms and dads are biblically charged to raise our children properly…appropriate methods of discipline are left for us to decipher.

I do not mean to assert, of course, that spanking is the only means to this end. I much prefer other methods of discipline as I do not enjoy or like inflicting pain on my children. As my parents used to tell me, “this hurts me much more than it hurts you.” As a parent myself, now, I understand that. After all, what kind of person likes to lovingly disipline their children in a physical manner? Not me, by any means…but I realize that at times it is in their best interest.

One more thing…just as one person wrote that not spanking does not necessarily perpetuate criminal behavior, spanking does not necessarily perpetuate emotional instability and psychoses in our children.

Finally, please do not assume that I abuse my child because I employ corporal punishment. Just as it’s none of the government’s business, frankly, it is none of yours either.

Sorry…couldn’t let this go.

Please leave Jesus out of this. To use the arguement that Jesus didn’t hit children is irrelevant. Jesus didn’t do a lot of things…and we can’t authoritatively say what He did or did not do because not every moment of His 33 years of life is recorded in scripture.

Let’s keep a scripturally moot point moot!

Wow. I like to say what did Jesus DO instead of what would he do… What happened when people were selling in the temple?

I do not believe that if you’re not spanked you will automatically end up a criminal and I ask the person to reread my post carefully. For the child who didn’t get time outs, I do believe the police will be waiting for him/her later in life. I hope that clarifies the point that was previously twisted.

Spanking is just another tool parents have for discipline. Spanking is not violence. Abuse is abuse. Some children respond well to time outs. I did not. I have such a wonderful imagination that I created friends during my time out and had a great time. There were times when we had very little and there weren’t favorite things to take away from me. There were times we had an abundance and then you could take away something. Parenting is like managing - situational. What works for one child may not work for another. To force one set of parenting rules on all parents undermines the authority parents need to develop the uniqueness of their children.

We just have to let loving parents be loving parents and decide what works for the child being raised, within the confines of the law. If John Doe’s child responds well to time outs, I shouldn’t criticize John for how he decided to administer discipline. Likewise, spanking has been proven not to be violent and not to cause mental and violent issues. ABUSE has been shown to cause psychological and socially developmental problems. There’s a huge difference. I was spanked and I certainly was not abused. I also thank my mother for every lesson she taught me. I know that she loved me and I did not view any swat I received as abuse.

As far as using the Bible to defend spanking, again, we’re telling people what to believe in their faith. I attend a church that overall does not view the right to education children as many home schoolers have expressed.

There will always be proponents on both sides of the issue. There are people who were spanked and they feel it was violent. There are those who were spanked and thank their parents today.

So are officers violent too when they need to gain control?

Robert Surgernor has some wonderful statistics on the rise of domestic violence. Do you know the increase in domestic violence and by whom? Children are now beating on the parents! That’s where the statistics are coming from. That’s right, parents decided to stop beating and children started using force on them. Check the statistics for yourselves. And that’s the reports I took as well when I was an officer. I had parents who brought their children to the substations asking me to do something with their child. I’ve seen children stand in their parents face and tell them to shut up. I look at some of the shows and see kids walk out on parents or brush by them on the way to their rooms. I see kids laying in the floor in stores kicking their feet and shouting “No!” at parents. Overwhelmingly, most of the runs I had to homes in patrol concerned parents suffering at the hands of children out of control.

If you really want to be honest, look at the children today. Teachers are afraid of them. Police officers are in the schools. Do you think they are in the schools because the teachers might do something to the children? Maybe its those loving principals the officers need to keep an eye on. No, it’s the children that can’t be controlled at home who are coming to school and can’t be controlled there either.

I don’t think the time outs, overall, are working for well for juveniles. I think too many parents are concerned about someone calling in a complaint on them and they are letting children run over them.

Again, parents stopped spanking and children have become violent against the parents. They didn’t learn it from the parents though because they used “time outs” and “ignoring” and “removal of items” and “grounded.” (And, yes, sometimes these work, but overall, apparently, not well for the majority.) The last seminar I went to I believe the increase was more than 100% for juveniles attacking parents. And, when I sat in the training, I reflected on the homes I’d been to and who was causing the most problem.

Sometimes, as the writer above stated, a “swat” to the rear is a real attention getter (not a fist in the face).

View for yourselves where the violence is now coming from (and they are from kids who were not spanked). This does not mean that every child needs spanking. Again, I trust parents to know their children. Again, we’re talking about parents who are raising their children in love, not those parents who are abusers.

To include loving parents with abusers is misguided. Discipline has a purpose. My children knew which actions led to corporal punishment. It was no secret to them. Isn’t this the way society is with the law? If you speed, don’t you know what the cost is when you get a ticket? How about swinging at a police officer? Know how that’s going to end? When parents are guiding their children, it’s not some mysterious occurrence if you end up with a swat to the rear. You know what you did. If I ever had pushed my mother, I know I would have received a spanking. Period. But, by the time I was a teenager, I loved and respected my mother, not out of fear, but out of love.

Parents need all tools available to them. Spanking is legal and if parents have set up the guidelines for its use in the home, then they are not being cruel or violent.

But none of this applies to abusers. When they pick up pans and hit kids in the head, that fits the definition of violence. They are just angry. That has nothing at all to do with discipline. I told my own children that if I ever did anything like that to call children services for themselves. I did not spank my children in anger. I provided correction to them because I love them. If you love your children, you do correct them. Not always with the same method. The method is “situational.” Nevertheless, you must correct them or how can you say you love them.

I would never allow someone across the street to come over to my home to tell me what’s best for a child they do not know or to deal with a situation they know nothing about. I certainly do not want the government telling me which tool is appropriate when no law has been broken. And, I’m not going to tell other parents how to deal with a child they’ve known since birth. Nor am I going to interpret the Bible for them.

I appreciate HSLDA allowing me to be a parent who knows my children and trusts that I will follow the law in loving, raising, and disciplining my children.

If you’re telling me not to spank my child, aren’t you saying I don’t know how to parent and that I should let someone else do it? Because the reverse of not letting me legally parent my child means I have to give up that right to someone else who knows best for my child. Who would that be?

I am grateful for the relationship I have with my children. Because the correction I provided was done in love, whatever form that was used through the years, we are very close. Our teen years have not been full of the problems so many other families have experienced when there has been abuse or a lack of developing children.

I pray we all speak to each other in love and not put each other down for the legal choices utilized by parents to raise our children. I still believe good parents know what’s best for the child God blessed them to raise.

To further clarify “get time outs” above, that’s “grasp” and “benefit” from the time outs - will later in life meet up with police who will then administer force.

Real Abuse happens everyday in this country. It is dangerous to our children to define it so broadly. If we reduce our definition to everything from being hit with a baseball bat or a metal rod to being spanked on the covered bottom just enough to sting we dilute the charge and those who injure children will be swept under the carpet even more.

A light spanking on the covered bottom with a hand or mild implement when a child is putting himself or others in danger is more loving than just letting them get hurt. What is more loving a swat to the bottom and a sound NO when a child reaches for the stove or letting the child touch the stove and learning from experience.

Parents need the ability to dicipline as they see need for. If we begin to errode away parental rights we will have CPS in our house telling us we can’t tell our children no.

There is a clear distinction that can be made between interventional physical discipline, and punitive physical discipline. The former, which is the typical hand slap or bottom swat, is usually done for protection or attention, and is relatively harmless. The latter, which is done with a rod or paddle, is usually done strictly for punishment, and has the potential to be quite harmful. The single purpose is to inflict not just discomfort, but significant pain on a young child. The fear of great pain (and it is painful) is the deterrent. Rather than just a hand, an object is always used (spoon, switch, belt, rod, paddle) that increases the pain. And let’s be clear–a child does not separate the pain from the pain giver, whatever the means of the pain.

I don’t know how to create a line, and certainly would not trust government to create that line, but the line is there nonetheless, at least it is for me. I have a hard time seeing any justification whatsoever for using an object for punitive discipline for no other reason than to increase the level of pain as a kind of deterrence. The reality is that it is for punishment, not for deterrence (only the most compliant children who don’t need physical discipline will fear it; the strong willed ones will not).

The only reason, I believe, Christians argue for the right to inflict pain on young children is because they mistakenly believe that God endorses it, because they have been taught that God either approves or requires physical discipline of young children. They take four verses out of Proverbs completely out of context and incorrectly translated, and declare that the “rod” is God’s only approved means of discipline for little children. Those that promote such a view have sold, literally, millions of books and poisoned the minds of countless Christians in the process.

One book that has sold hundreds of thousands humorously taught that bruising on the buttocks of a preschooler from a paddling was not a big deal, and that even the child knew that. When we confronted the publisher that they were endorsing child abuse, they removed that paragraph in the next edition, but the book went on to become a huge seller. Another book teaches that a rod should be used from a very young age, and a woman who thought she was following those instructions disciplined her child to death thinking she was obeying God’s commands. The reality is that punitive physical discipline of young children is not taught in Scripture. The rod is never associated with young children in Scripture.

Ask yourself a question: If you were not a Christian and had never heard any “rod” teachings, would you still condone or promote punitive physical dscipline (using a object) of young children? Would you believe that it should be a parent’s right, guaranteed by law, to inflict significant pain on a child with a foreign object?

Honestly, as much as I believe in keeping government out of my family’s business, I’m conflicted over this whole question of whether it should be a constitutional “right” for any parent to paddle or strike a young child with an object. I am not really concerned about interventional physical discipline, but arguing for the unregulated freedom of any parent to use an object to inflict significant pain on a little child, even on an infant, is another thing altogether. Is there no middle ground for believers on this, or must we be the only ones defending the right of many parents who we know will abuse that right with flagrant, near-abusive, regular whippings and paddlings? Is there no place on the conservative side of this debate to argue that God would want us to protect those “little ones” as well by restricting the use of objects to inflict pain on young children?

I’m a card-carrying, conservative, evangelical, and a supporter of the Parent Rights movement, but I also want to be pro-life in the broadest sense, and protect children who cannot protect themselves. I’m just wondering if there is a place for those kinds of sentiments in this debate? If not, then is this a truly biblical issue?

If you were hit as a child and you hit your children, then whatever you want to call it (spanking, abuse), you are passing down a cycle of hitting and violence (yes, cops sometimes use “violence” — that is what force is).

I suppose that since in Christianity, women are ultimately to be submissive to men, it’s okay to spank your wife, too, if she is too strong-willed? Can I also spank the woman at the grocery store if she’s inappropriate, as long as it doesn’t leave a mark? At least that would be FAIR and the poor woman would have an escape from me and my clear lack of negotiation skills. Children have no escape.

It is absolutely my business if someone hits a child. Child abuse is everyone’s business. If community, church, neighbors, strangers, government, whomever, turn our backs when children are being hit, molested, or whatever, who will protect them?

Where does the hitter draw that line? A light spank? A rod? A belt? Welts or no welts? Naked bottom with bare genitalia across daddy’s lap? Where is that line? And if we all should stay out of it, is it okay that there is not line?

You all might be surprised to know there is another way to work with children. It’s called gentle parenting and involves neither time-outs, shaming, hitting, blaming or any of the disrespectful, controlling, power-over tactics people mention don’t work.

Controlling behaviors don’t work because children are people with their own spirits, hearts and minds who will ultimately make their own choices — and need tools to do so.

I went to Christian school for all of my pre-collegiate years and watched many parenting styles. I know many of my classmates today. I’ll tell you this…those who were raised with a “loving” iron fist weren’t really controlled. They just learned survival skills…how to become expert sneaks and liars. They loved their parents, sure, and most became upstanding citizens (whether hit or not — and not necessarily as defined by their parents), but if their parents only knew what was REALLY going on, they would have been STUNNED. Their children couldn’t be honest with them. I’m doubting your children are honest with you. Think about it.

When you give examples of children growing up to be criminals, I’m just betting that they never learned conflict resolution, cooperation and negotiation because their parents were too busy trying to control them with whatever means.

I know MANY MANY adults who did not have spanking or time-outs (or the nose-in-the-corner equivalents) and are upstanding citizens today. They are all STRONG-WILLED and always were.

A strong willed child — whether “spanked,” beaten to (temporary) submission or deprived of all joys in life via grounding, time-out, etc. will eventually grow up where such tactics DO NOT APPLY and DO NOT WORK (i.e. in the real world) — UNLESS he or she is a criminal in jail or at war. Essentially, these are cop-tactics that rational-minded adults do not use to navigate their way through the social complexities of the world.

If we model empathy, love, compassion, understanding and NON-VIOLENCE (realizing that many of these “behaviors” are really developmentally appropriate impulse control problems), children will learn these skills from us.

Yes, it is MUCH harder to help children negotiate the world without controlling them by breaking their spirits (via hitting, shaming, blaming, grounding, emotionally abandoning via time-out, etc.)? It takes a lot more time and patience, too.

But it IS worth it.

I wish with all my heart we could stand together on the side of non-violence, but you go your way and I’ll go mine. Please remember, though, that those little spirits don’t have the tools to control their emotions yet — just as most adults don’t have perfect control over emotions. Help them learn to control impulses and deal with emotions lovingly.

If you knew you didn’t have to hurt your child to raise them well, would you still do it? If you cannot raise your child well without hitting them, then what likely is needed isn’t more hitting, but better parenting skills.

I hope and pray that this issue someday goes away — for all of our sake.

Since I say there are other ways, I thought I’d share some examples of teaching young children without hitting them (from my experience with my THREE STRONG-WILLED children.

1) RUNNING TOWARD THE STREET. I stay close when they are toddlers. If they run toward a street, I get down low and say something like, “That’s not safe. That really scares me, because I love you so much and those big cars can really hurt you.” I remember that small children are impulsive and that this is DEVELOPMENTALLY APPROPRIATE, so I stay very close until they are old enough to understand these concepts. Once they truly understand (and it does require impulse control and “if-then” abstract reasoning), then no longer want to run out in the street. Who would?

2) TOUCHING A HOT STOVE. I show my children SAFELY and WITHOUT LETTING THEM GET HURT what “hot” means. From the time they are little, we say “hot” near hot things. If they go for the stove, I get down to their level and say something like, “That’s hot and it will hurt your hand if you touch it.” Then, again, I keep near them and protect them until they have the impulse control to protect themselves. The wouldn’t burn themselves purposely.

3) SWEARING. When my oldest used the F word, I could have hit her, shamed her or washed her mouth out with soap, but I didn’t. First, she had NO IDEA what the impact or meaning of the word was…She just sensed it was powerful. I told her the truth about swear words. I said, they are words that only have as much power as people give them. HOWEVER, if you use them around your friends, their parents will likely not let you play with them; if you use them around adults, they will likely think poorly of both you and I; if you use them around babies, they will copy because they don’t understand these things yet.” So my daughter said, so I really can’t say them around anyone? I said, “Well, you’ve figured me out!” I explained that sometimes I swear (It’s true…I’m not above it), but that using big words comes with big responsibility. I don’t use those words around children, my parents, etc. for the same reasons. Does my daughter swear now? Nope. Will she later? Probably. Most people occasionally do (whether their f-word is Fudge or the other F, whether it is shoot or the other SH…whether it is darn or the other D — just thinly veiled words with the same meaning anyway). Is it an issue worth destroying our trust over by shoving soap in her mouth? No way. Because she trusts me and that what I say is true, she doesn’t swear. She also has nothing to rebel against (ALL of my friends in Christian school swore, even under the threat of hellfire and damnation, BTW).

4) Hitting. All of my children hit me and others as toddlers, but as older children are non-violent. When they hit me or others, I removed them from the situation and, when necessary, I held their hands (and feet if they were kicking) VERY GENTLY and calmly explained, “I’m holding you for a minute until you can stop hurting, because I need to keep us both safe.” When it was safe, we would sit together and I would talk about why hitting is not okay (even when they were very young, I would say “gentle to Mommy,” etc. if there was hitting and would show how to touch gently). I’d say that we need to use our words to express our emotions. This would not be a trusted discussion if I, too, was hitting and incapable of using my words. Voila. They learned not to hit without being hit.

Now with this, I’m not perfect and I’ve made mistakes. Even if I was perfect, the children would still make mistakes, because THEY ARE CHILDREN. If adults cannot be perfect, how can they? Embrace mistakes as learning opportunities. View them through the child’s eyes. Tell them the truth. e.g. “Honey, I’m feeling VERY frustrated and angry that you purposely threw your milk.” (though it’s likely more impulse control than true purpose if under 5 or 6). “Now there is a mess that we have to clean and there is less time for us to play together” or “we’ll be late to XYZ” or whatever. And if they’re having an emotional meltdown, I hold them if they want or let them be if they want (GENTLY protecting them, myself and property if their emotions have taken over them) and HELP them navigate their emotional challenges.

Think about yourself. Have you had an emotional meltdown ever that was inappropriate? What would help you break through it? Probably some loving arms or a moment alone would work much better than if someone spanked you.

Also, even if you’ve hit your kids (whether “lightly” or not so lightly), I bet they still make mistakes. It doesn’t work any better than other solutions, so why do it?

Anyway, there is a non-violent solution for everything when it comes to children. You do have to be creative and remain flexible. Nothing works EVERY time. It might require repetition (and again, piles of patience), but there are alternatives.

Well I am not sure what genius level your kids are but when I tell my 14 month old no stove, hot he looks at me like I am from mars! But when I swat him on the bottom with a rod and tell him no he listens. It works for me and I do it in love. Period. How would you like it if you where forced to spank your child for doing something wrong? same thing for telling people they cant.

Well, by that logic, I guess if we tell people they can’t murder and molest, that’s the same as them telling us we must murder and molest? That’s not a logical statement.

So hitting a defenseless baby works for you? In that second? Or have years passed without your child ever approaching the stove again?

And by your logic, can I hit you with a rod on the bottom and tell you “no” when you almost hurt yourself? How ridiculous. As if that poor baby knows better and deserves to be hurt by his own mother.

Why let the stove hurt you when your own mommy will hurt you instead!!!

And what a way to smother the curiosity out of a child rather than help them learn to explore safely within gently guided limits.

Giving a child a swat on the bottom with your hand or with a paddle will NOT do significant harm and they will be fine! It is NOT abuse, it is a form of discipline and it is every parents right to choose how they will discipline their own children. That is the point, we all have a right to choose what we feel is best for our own children! It is NOT up to anyone else how one’s own child should be disciplined. There is a HUGE difference between discipline and abuse, do NOT lump them together!

If we are foolish enough in this country to “Ban” spanking, where will it stop? Next the government will be telling parents they cannot put their child in a time out because it will hurt the childs self-esteem or some other foolish nonsense! We need to keep government OUT of our lives. Give them an inch and they take a mile. Think about it.

Also, what is with all the silly language: “physical discipline,” “interventional physical discipline,” “corporal punishment,” or even “spanking?”

It’s HITTING. If you are so proud of your right to hit your kids, at least own it.

Perhaps the urge to veil the language should tell you something.

The bible says that foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.

I didnt realise how young they could be before this started to show until my little one who was 11 months old at the time, smacked my face when I told him no to something. And this was before I started to discipline him.

point is that spanking him gently on the pampered bottom helped him to stop doing it to me. I tell him to give mama hugs and kisses not hit and thats exactly what he does now.

The reason we dont call it hitting is because that is not what it is. If i react out of anger towards someone and swing and hit them then that is different than calmly lovingly swatting my child on the bottom wanting in my heart what is best for him. The fact taht you dont see a difference is what worries me and maybe since you see no difference in abuse and loving discipline, you should not touch your kids. but for those of us who know the difference we have the right to do so at our discretion.

Physical discipline, corporal punishment… kindler, gentler language is what the court now understands when parents use it. Children services has unfortunately used any other words to build baseless cases against parents.

Officers do use necessary force. There’s an older movie, I think it was “Demolition Man” where Wesley Snipes (acting as a criminal) is approached by the police and the kindler, gentler new police force tells him to put down his weapon. He refuses. They are shocked and ask what to do next… The computer tells them to add the words, “Or else…” He does NOT comply and murders more people. Citizens also think officers shouldn’t have batons/asps, tasers, etc. They call in complaints on them too (I know, I worked the complaint line). A question that would come up in training about force, “Okay, we’re told where to strike suspects. When is someone going to tell them where they can only hit us?”

This is now what is happening with parents. People are telling parents to stop using certain choices in their parenting. And then, when the child is out of control, they criticize the parent.

This is where all this telling others how to raise their children is leading in reality. BTW, many things from that movie are happening if you carefully analyze it. If we are naive enough to believe there’s not an attempt to undermine our rights, no one will be able to tell you differently.

I am unconcerned with those who try to force unsubstantiated claims of violence when parents spank or “administer discipline.” As a person who has actually been in home after home, I know what is occurring in the homes. As a certified DARE instructor (prior to retirement), I saw what children are capable of doing at school and in their homes. I have been to the trainings that identify what’s happening with young people.

I urge people to go beyond their own tunnel vision and find out what’s going on in the real world with children today. I have been standing up for what is right all my life and my spirit was never hampered or broken. There is nothing to show spanking causes any problems, only abuse.

Many people reference their own immediate circle in regards to these type of issues. They have no idea what’s going on in homes and the challenges faced by parents across the country.

Lisa, you make an excellent point with reality! And, no matter how much you try and watch your children every single minute, you can’t. I had a friend whose young child used to get up in the middle of the night while she was sleeping. I was so happy I didn’t have that problem. Why didn’t I? Our alarm sounded if the children entered the kitchen so they learned right away not to go there until the alarm was turned off. Again, our family had a situation that resolved a problem that had to be handled differently by another family just because of circumstances. No, she didn’t spank him for going in the kitchen. But, she was concerned about him being near the stove while she was sleeping.

You will continue to see people post spanking is abuse without any credible documentation. The quotes they pull are from abuse not spanking. The experts use abuse/spanking, but when you follow-up on the statistics, again, you find they are abuse statistics. And, they try to make it seem like parents are beating on little 1 and 2 year olds and conjure up cartoonish type mental pictures of big bad parents trying to control little, unsuspecting children. This is what the UN guidelines are doing, plain and simple. Clearly, we can see how we are already being led to believe it’s okay to let allow children to have the right to their own interests.

Yes, I controlled my children. My spouse and I took a leadership/parental role in their lives. They had freedom of expression, and as I’ve described, we have open communication. Maintaining control doesn’t mean it’s a Stepford community.

Funny, in my state, it’s written right into the law to maintain control over the children. My point exactly…that’s why there are now armed officers (plus security guards) in schools - the children are not being controlled without force. And yes, force has to be used by officers in the schools.

This is what this amendment is about. The law is clear in the states on defining abuse. Most would be surprised that even the states do not equate abuse with what some on this site claim is abuse.

For example, some states use language such as “serious physical harm…” as a measure for abuse. With that definition, most of what people have described in this site would not be considered abuse. Period. If it were serious physical harm then that would be the standard an officer could shoot the parent while witnessing the spanking. I would never have shot a parent for tapping a child’s hand as admonishment over a safety issue.

Become informed about what children are doing today. Research for yourself/yourselves who is committing violence today. And, again, these are the young people from the “we shouldn’t spank era.” Parents can’t be blamed for spanking them. The parents let go over many aspects of their authority in the home.

Like Christie, I would call in a complaint if I knew a child was being abused. I went into homes where children had to be removed when there was imminent danger.

But, again, if you look at the evidence for yourselves, you will see parents are not the real problem. The government is paying children services for adopting out the children. There are some cases that pop up that are extreme, but for the most part, this is about money the states want.

The real issue here is the rights that are being violated in the process of tearing families apart. I support parents making the best choices for their families. I’ve found parents to be loving, caring, and nurturing - controlling, directing, and guiding too! Thank God my mother was all of that.

Dear Don’t Give Up Our Rights,

While I completely disagree with you, Lisa and others on the need to spank, I COMPLETELY agree with the need to abolish or completely restructure CPS. There are alternatives to removing children from the home in many cases and some of what they do is criminal and crazy. And I believe everyone in this discussion loves their children and is trying to do their very best.

I do not believe that children act up because they are not spanked. In fact, I believe the opposite is true.

On the “rod,” all interpret the Bible differently. I was taught that the sheepherders used the rod to GUIDE the sheep in the pasture…not to spank them.

Perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps, in fact, they poked them. Maybe that’s our next Biblical interpretation…We’ll see parents in malls poking their kids with a rod to get them into or out of a store and fighting for their right to do so, because they think the Bible told them to (and they’ll be cutting out their own eyes and whatnot, too). Anyway, do you really follow everything the Bible says, literally? Or just picking the spare the rod issue as an excuse?

I’ve seen many, many families, too, on the medical side rather than the police side. So many who think they spank do not do so in a levelheaded way. Saying it is okay to spank for many people is just a slippery slope into abuse. There’s a reason those lines are blurred.

Also, where’s the study that says that kids who are spanked turn out better? You’re saying the kids from the “we shouldn’t spank” era are turning out worse, but correlation does not equal cause, and you haven’t provided any evidence that this is true. If there are studies showing that kids who are “spanked” (e.g. only on the padded rear with a hand or something similar and not leaving a mark or however you define abuse) are less likely to become criminals than those who are not, I am certainly open to reading them.

I’ve never seen a documented study that says children who are spanked turn out better, but I’ve seen a TON that show that ANY type of physical discipline is damaging.

As for the anecdotes, I know several adults from the spanking era. They are upstanding citizens (I tend to shy away from criminal types), and thus substantiate your claims. However, even those who had very “limited, controlled” spanking say they felt it was damaging and that it encouraged them to sneak and lie. They did all the things their parents would not want, despite the spankings. They do not call their parents wise; they say they forgive their parents because they “didn’t know better.”

Striking something or someone with one’s hand or an object is HITTING. Look in any dictionary. That the courts understand the “kinder, gentler” words for it cannot change the definition of hitting.

And yes, I know the laws are pretty lax on what levels of force parents can use on their children. Regardless of laws, I wish parents would choose not to hurt their children.

Hitting IS hurting. Ask any child after a “spanking”…Did that hurt? If the answer is “yes,” than you are hurting your child. There really is no way around it. And that was the point of the action, anyway, correct?

Again, perhaps the urge to veil the language should tell you something.

On studies:

“Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Austria, Finland and other countries (20) that have banned corporal punishment of children in general have low rates of interpersonal violence compared to the United States. Critics predicted that Swedish youth would grow up more unruly after parents stopped spanking because of the l979 corporal punishment ban. Dr. Joan Durrant who studied effects of the ban for l5 years reported that this did not happen. Her studies indicate youth did not become more unruly, under socialized or self-destructive following the ban. In fact, she said most measures demonstrated a substantial improvement in youth well-being (Durrant, 2000). Professor Adrienne Haeuser who studied these educational laws in Europe in 1981 and 1991 said “Children are receiving more discipline since the law in Sweden passed. Parents think twice and tend to rely more on verbal conflict resolution to manage their children”. Discipline is important. Discipline means “to teach”. We need more discipline of children such as explaining and reasoning, establishing rules and consequences, praising good behavior in children and being good models for or children. Such methods develop a child’s conscience and self-control. Children who experience teaching discipline are less likely to misbehave and more likely to become self-disciplined adults.”

That was from: http://www.stophitting.com/disathome/factsAndFiction.php

If you go to PubMed, there are literally 100s of studies on the type of hitting that parents say is “spanking” only on the bottom, etc., which show that this parenting technique (if one can call it that) is detrimental. This is IN ADDITION to 100s more studies where the hitting escalates beyond the bottom (what many of you would call “abuse.” BOTH are detrimental to children.

LISA: There are no “little children” in Proverbs. The better reading should be, “Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a young man.” The Hebrew term naar in Proverbs refers to a young man of 16-20, NOT to a young child. “Train up a young man in the way he should go” means to prepare a young man spiritually and he will keep going God’s way when he becomes an adult. The choice between “foolishness” and “wisdom” in Proverbs requires a moral discernment that Scripture says young children do not have. The “child and rod” passages all make much better sense in the context of the whole book of Proverbs when translated correctly. I could go on and on with examples, but this is a blog post,not a book.

My point is: physical discipline of young children is nowhere taught or modeled in Scripture. The rod is associated ONLY with young adults, adults, and nations. WE INVENTED SPANKING…GOD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. If you want to defend spanking of young children, don’t use the Bible. It is not there.

CHRISTIE: You have some very good points to make, but your zealousness is getting in the way of the real issue. What can and should be done at the legal level? Are you OK with legislation that would make any and all kinds of “hitting” (as you describe it) unlawful? In other words, if CA is determined to pass a bill, would you be in favor of it banning all forms of parental physical discipline that you so eloquently abhor? Or, would you be willing to moderate your passion in order to put some reasonable controls on physical discipline that still preserve parental rights (such as ban using objects to discipline)? Are you concerned about erosion of parental rights in this context, or do you feel physical discipline is in a different category? It’s probably in an earlier post, but I’m not sure I understand what you are arguing viz the proposed CA legislation.

Who in their right mind would want to live in the countries you named? PEOPLE do NOT have freedom in those countries, the GOVERNMENT does!!! Also, in those countries, prostitution is legal, drugs are legal and the government looks the other way when it comes to human trafficing for the sex industry!! Does that tell you something! Those countries have taken parental rights away from parents!

Look up the words “spank” and “spanking” in the dictionary, says NOTHING about hitting!
(Random House Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary copyright date 2001)

It really sounds like you have some deep rooted issues and if that is the case, I am sorry, but just because YOU have issues, doesn’t mean the government should be allowed to rip away the rights of GOOD parents.

Everyone on this Blog understands your point of view, but you are not willing to see the BIG picture here and that is NOT right and could be dangerous to the rights of ALL parents.

I urge you to think about and see the BIG picture here and try to understand what is at stake. NO ONE is saying that it is ok to abuse a child! It is wrong, but giving a child a spanking IS different!

I will apologize now if I sound too harsh, but it drives me crazy that parents would be so willing to give up parental rights to the government. You must understand that it WILL NOT stop at just spanking!

In case it is unclear as to whom I was addressing my point to, it was Christe regarding her “documentation” on Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Norway and whatever other country was named as examples of countries that have “banned” spanking.

What wonderful examples those countries are! Have you looked closely at their governments? Is that what you want for this country?

Melinda, you are so correct! The government will not stop with one inch, they will go a mile with whatever control we give to them in our homes.

Christie is very passionate about her stand, which is a good thing. In every issue, both sides of an argument need to be expressed. We’ve heard these arguments before, as has our lawmakers, and reality has led them to believe that spanking is still one legally effective tool for parents to utilize in raising children. When misguided politicians raise the spanking issue, it is up to voting Americans to stop them.

Third party statistics (not studies funded by children services, someone who wants a name for them for their books, etc.) need to be relied upon for evidence on the spanking issue. Better yet, go to the prisons and juvenile centers and ask the prisoners what type of parenting they received. Talk to people who have real experience in these issues. This is what counts. Not most of these PhD’s who never raised children, or those who have children and you find out that their tactics didn’t work on their own families. But, if they’re happy with the way the children turned out, then that was the goals they set for their children. My children were not allowed to do the things Christie described above. I don’t think that makes her kids brats and mine angels (metaphorically speaking here). But, it shows that what is permitted in her home is not permitted in mine. Should I have the right to take her children (as an officer or case worker) if I see her employing the methods above?

Christie might be surprised that some of the things she mentioned above could be turned in for abuse as well (and she would be at the mercy of the caseworkers - and I’ve seen this happen as well). When I first started as an officer, I went out with caseworkers on a call when a parent had restrained a child (witnessed in a store). The caseworker wanted me to remove the child. There was nothing in the home that led me to believe there was abuse going on. And, with the family being on my district, I was observant thereafter. They were a wonderful family. The case worker, BTW, was very unhappy that I did not remove the children from that home. So, by Christie’s own admission of restraining, she admits to abuse as described by others watching such activity. Parenting isn’t necessarily popular as one writer put it. So, when you see parents doing their job, someone on the outside may question the method (spanking, restraining, ignoring, timeouts). I’ve seen people talk about the psychological devastation to children put in time outs.

This is why this is such a critical issue. We need to let loving parents be parents and stay out of their homes. We need to continue to report credible abuse cases to protect children from abuse.

The reason I mentioned the above “kindler, gentler” information is because over and over again I have seen proponents cry out to be nicer in many areas. If you haven’t watched that movie, take time to do so. (Demolition Man). There’s a lot in it that reflects today. See how people in that society have been guided to their thinking. I don’t want to list anything else from the movie here that’s happened already because we can go in so many directions from the spanking issue.

All you have to do is scare people about safety issues and then laws are passed, wars are started, etc. Hitler convinced a nation to follow him with his propaganda. We’re at war with Iraq and Osama Bin Laden wasn’t there. Iraq didn’t fly planes into the Twin Towers. Let’s not use scare tactics on the spanking issue. We are not losing children to spanking. We have lost children to the abuse the laws has defined and has the authority to stop. The current laws are sufficient.

We need to be careful not to take “studies” and make them fact (as evolution is being done). These studies quoted by Christie are by groups pushing the UN agenda. When you see publishing on certain topics, who is funding them and why?

America is one of the greatest nations ever to exist and I hope we can keep it that way. Otherwise, we’ll keep nipping and chipping away at our Constitution with these “issues” until all our rights are gone. And, that is what’s happening. Take away spanking (even with a ruler like was used in schools for many, many years), take away this right on your land, take away
the right to have hand guns in your own homes in some cities, etc. All of these issues coming up are part of a larger picture, eroding our rights. We’ve got to concentrate on the bigger issue. Agree to disagree but not to do support laws that will further erode our rights. If you’re that passionate about helping parents find ways to help their children, put your efforts there. That is one of the things I am committed to doing - actually showing people how to help their children. I’ve even attended school conferences with parents to assist their children. I refuse to provide open training so that abusers cannot take my materials to find ways to beat the system and harm children. This is where we can be most effective in assisting parents with problems. For no matter what law is passed in America, if someone wants to abuse (break their bones, incest, failure to provide nourishment or medical treatment, etc.) their child, they will. If they are a criminal, they are a criminal. Just like if someone wants a gun, they’ll get one no matter what the gun laws are in their state.

We cannot allow an issue that has no credibility to erode our Constitution.

Melinda, I see the big picture and I get it. Therefore, I will not support any laws that take away rights of parents, including spanking. It is not abuse, proven by third-party evidence (those neither for or against spanking).

Let me paint two pictures for you.

I am 6 years old and using a chair to clean the dishes becasue I am to short to reach the sink. I am working hard to please my abusive father because I do not want him to be mad if I dont do a perfect job. Obviously it is not perfect because when he sees my work he goes on a rampage throwing everything he sees onto the floor then grabbing a shoe, or belt or whatever he can find that suits his mood and I get a beating for it. One that leaves bloody marks on my back and legs. I go to my room and cry myself to sleep but only after I redo the kitchen and pray that he thinks its ok this time.

Picture #2

My 2 year old is in the cart at walmart and he sees a toy he wants ( I never give into demands at stores but he is trying me to see what I will do) I gently tell him no and say that he has plenty of toys at home. He demands louder and I again tell him no. he starts to cry and jump around which to me is very shocking becasue he is usually very sweet and obedient. So I pick him up out of the buggy and tell him ok we are going home ( I do not believe in letting my kid interupt others’ shopping) and that he will be getting a spanking for his behavior. he emmediatley stops and apologizes. Too late sweetie you still need to be spanked for what you just did. SO we get home I put him in his bed for a short time out so he can think about what he has done. I go in after I have prayed for the right spirit and heart. Knowing that I am there to help him to be better. I also have a small scripture to back up what I am going to say. We talk for a minute or two. I have him get down from the bed, turn around and I give him his pop. then we pray together and he says sorry and I say I forgive you and he hugs me tight around the neck and tells me he loves me.

Two very different pictures wouldnt you say? How can you lump those two together as the saem thing.

My pastor has come up with a biblical based discipline plan that is so sought after that is it now translated in 7 other languages around the world. at the end of one of his seminars a social worker came up to him (he had no idea that she was there watching and listening) she told him you know, what you describe is so refreshing and so far from abuse I wish that every parent we had to deal with would take your class.

LISA: Just to make a distinction, you are certainly free in Christ to decide to give your 2 year-old a “pop” as discipline, but let’s be clear: there is absolutely no Scripture that justifies or models that methodology. It’s purely cultural and personal. Don’t try to suggest that you have God’s approval, because you don’t. God is silent on the issue of physical discipline of little children. And just because he doesn’t condemn it doesn’t mean he condones it.

So, that said, let’s take one more picture, which is one described by some very popular Christian teachers. Another God-fearing mom takes her 2yo home and, based on teaching by her godly pastor, gets out her PVC rod, and gives her child 10 swats on the back of the legs (never mentioned in Scripture, but it would be “abuse” if done scripturally across the little one’s back). The child stiffens and doesn’t cry, so she gives him 10 more until he goes limp and cries, showing he has submitted to her authority. She does all the requisite “loving” and such, and life goes on. Is this abuse, or just “loving Christian discipline”?

And one final thought. The idea of such long-delayed discipline of a 2yo is ridiculous. There was absolutely no connection in that child’s mind to the earlier behavior. If it had been my 2yo child, physical discipline would never have been an issue. IMHO, too many parents punish their children for behavior that has nothing to do with disobedience. How about hugging him up, distracting him, and giving him some grace.

I have a good question for you. If you are so against the parental right to spank then why are you even on this site that is all for that very thing?

Good question Lisa. Why are people on this site, which happens to be called “Parental Rights” if they aren’t for parental rights??

Some people are just NOT willing to drop their baggage and see the bigger picture. If anyone thinks that the government wants to protect children, they are way off base. The government wants two things: control and money! Government will do anything to gain both of those.

Thinking logically, what would be the BEST way to gain the most control? I will tell you, by getting control of the children! How does government do that you ask, by passing laws to limit what the parents can do! Taking away the power of parents over their own children. Once a government does that, who then becomes the parent?? GOVERNMENT!
Why on earth is that so hard for some to comprehend?
There is a great book titled “Government Nannies” By Cathy Duffy, I recommend that everyone read it. Although it speaks more about education, it does touch on the spanking issue and how social services uses that as a way to take kids away from parents. It is an eye-opening book and I think some people need their eyes open before it is too late!

GOD help us all!

The insidious truth about anti-spanking, mandated parenting classes, and the rest is this: these measures discourage life and make having family harder.
Have you ever seen a family of greater than 4 children from these ninnies? These people want very small families- one or two kids max. Kill the rest at the start. “Some people should not have kids” is their bottom line.
I cannot accept this philosophical premise. All done with the pretense of “treasure the child” idolitry.
Children ARE a great good. Marriage is the logical support system for that great good. God is pro-life. He is a God of order.

This is clearly my opinion, Lisa and Melinda, but I think they come to sites such as these because they want to keep trying to discredit God anHis authrity. They keep trying to incite by interpreting what every Christian should believe. They misspell words on the site. They make suggestions to support government instead of family and individual rights. Their focus is not about the issue at hand.

I come on the site to support the blog, to learn more about challenges people face, and to offer support to people who are being persecuted. There have been people on the site with some very heartbreaking problems. There are parents looking for somewhere to turn for support. Some are single parents, and not by choice. And, the other good thing for parents is discussing spanking. In years past, there was less communication involved between children and parents regarding spanking. But, as Lisa described above, there’s an understanding that is built, year after year as the child matures. Children don’t automatically know what “No” means. They are taught what it means. I make this awful “aaaat” noise that my very young children immediately knew something’s terribly wrong. (My dog also knows when she hears it as well. It stops you immediately because it’s a terrible sound, but it works).

Melinda, I agree too that when you get the mind of a child, you’ve got the future. You don’t have to do any harm to people if you can get them to do it to themselves. If government can warp the mind of our children now, then they will vote exactly as the government wants when government needs them to.

LISA: You are not reading my posts very carefully. My answer to your question is below.

MELINDA: I can easily see your very Libertarian “big picture,” but it may be less clear than you believe.

For the record, I am not against the “parental right to spank,” as it seems to be known now. If you read my earlier posts I think that is clear. I’m trying to give voice to two concerns in what I believe will be a very complicated issue for this new parental rights movement, and one which has the potential to kill it in its tracks.

First, I want to disabuse my fellow conservative Christians of any idea that the Bible teaches physical discipline of little children. It does not. So, this particular “parental rights” issue should not be argued on any pseudo biblical grounds. It’s entirely an extrabiblical, cultural topic. Frankly, I find it offensive that “spanking” has become an almost exclusively Christian issue. It is because evangelicals have longly and wrongly taught that God not only authorizes, but even commands parents to spank little children. So it has become an “obey God not man” kind of issue to them. We won’t just lose our credibility in the public square over turning spanking into an issue of religious liberty, we’ll literally throw it away. And we’ll say goodbye to many future rights when we throw away our credibility as we willingly give up the opportunity to have future influence politically on parental issues…all over a non-biblical issue.

Second, I am concerned that being for parental rights, and for a parental rights amendment to the consitution, could come to mean an unchecked support for and advocacy of spanking in all of its forms (using any kind of object to strike a child for any reason). This is exactly what you have snarkily asserted–if I don’t support spanking, then I’m not really for parental rights. Here’s the rub for me: I affirm the right of any Christian parent to use reasonable physical discipline if they are walking in the Spirit and using discernment. It’s their decision and it has nothing to do with any biblical teaching. However, at the level of state law, I am not sure that parental rights necessarily means no restrictions on how physical discipline is meted out to a little child or an infant. If I am truly “pro-life,” I should be for the little ones who are threatened by parents striking them with objects with impunity, just as much as I am for protecting the innocent life in the womb. Parental rights should not trump being pro-life in its fullest expression.

I am a small-government Conservative, and I don’t want the government meddling in my family affairs. And I know all the issues and arguments, thank you. But I’m also a compassionate conservative, and I’m concerned that evangelical Christians will blindly and unthinkingly follow the “parental right to spank” crowd and make it publicly a Christian issue when it is not. Christianity will be branded in the media as the “God commands me to spank my baby with a rod” movement. If that happens, that will be the beginning of the end of evangelicalism’s political influence, and the culture war will be effectively over. We lose. I don’t want that to happen, and that’s why I’m here on the site.

Dear “Don’t Give Up Our Rights”

I could not pass this up, and please know that I am meaning this in a fun, joking manner, NOT to be mean, but in your last post, you mentioned spelling errors. I hate to tell you this but YOU spelled “authority” wrong! LOL

Personally, I do not care about how people spell. I can figure it out as I am sure we all can. What I DO care about it what people have to say!

Let’s try to look beyond the spelling errors and just keep in mind that we all have something to say and we should say it!

I would just like to invite people like her into my home to see for themselves how my kids are.

My seven year old son is the most loving, sweet boy I could ever have hoped for. He writes me love notes daily. I am pregnant and he rubs my shoulders without me even asking him to, he puts lotion on my feet after I shower cause I cant reach them. When I feel bad he prays for me… My 15 month old is so full of joy I get comments every time I am out in public about how happy he is. He runs into his brothers room every morning and hugs him before he is ever awake. He loves to hug and kiss. Doesnt sound like children with broken spirits to me.

Its so easy to judge from your own opinions instead of finding out for your self what its really like.

Do I think there are people who abuse, oh yes! So I know there are people who lovingly spank and guide there children, oh yes! You know the fruit is in your life. Look at kids these days, look at how bad our world is becoming because of just such ignorance.

Plain and simple who gives a pack of overpaid strangers living in the white house the right to tell us what to do? Noone gave them that right. God gave US these special children to borrow for a short time and in that time we are to enjoy them, love them and yes discipline them. We are not asked if we want to we are commanded to do so. Gods plans and ways are perfect.

DON’T GIVE UP OUR RIGHTS:

Since you seem to believe that an occasional misspelled word on a blog post is grounds for challenging a poster’s character and accusing him of “trying to discredit God and his authority,” I won’t embarrass you by pointing out the several dozen instances of misspelled words and incorrect grammar in your post. Brother, if you want to criticize someone posting in good faith, especially another brother in Christ, at least do it intelligently. I support this blog, and the Parental Rights Amendment movement, and I support this organization financially. Your attitude needs a good spanking.

I didn’t read anywhere that anyone said “God wants parents to spank little children.” From what I know about HSLDA and other spanking supporters, I haven’t read a position from any of the them “God wants parents to spank little children.”

I am confident that the issue will be presented credibly and not include that God wants parents to spank “little” children.

Oops, there was “name” calling above - Libertarian… Did she say that she’s Libertarian?

Mom of Four, I didn’t understand your post. I was waiting around to see if you’d clarify more.

Thanks Chrrrrsstian. It’s those kind of misspelled words that are overwhelmingly obvious that I was speaking of. Sorry, that was made more clear on another post where someone wrote sentences such as: Is ben humskooled two an itz grate…

Those are the kinds of misspelled words that are obviously meant to discredit.

The other positions are not supportive of the amendment and give ammunition to non-supporters to come to this site to try and discredit the amendment. So, as the others asked, why would people come and post against the efforts of those supporting the amendment. And, yes, I believe it is an attempt to undermine the efforts for the amendments which supports the government’s desire to gain further control over our homes. With all I’ve seen, I have things on the opposing side as well, but I don’t post it to work against legislation that would be effective for raising our children.

I use the information in training and other avenues to make this world better (in a way that protects our Constitutional rights).

I would like to hear more from “mom of four” also:) I have four kids too:)

I hope and pray that this blog will not turn ugly, because I do like to hear what people have to say as well as express my own opinion.

Maybe we need to just stick to the topic and skip the name calling and grammar policing. Is it really all that important to get every word spelled correctly and every comma in the right place?? I think we are all intelligent enough and Christian enough to over look such things.

The MOST important issue here is PARENTAL RIGHTS! Let’s stay focused.

I honestly feel it is MY right as a parent to discipline MY child the way I see fit. Government needs to stay OUT of it. And I am takling about discipline NOT abuse! There is a difference.

DON’T GIVE UP OUR RIGHTS:

Last time I checked, “Libertarian” simply means the belief in limited government and unhindered liberty of the individual. I was characterizing Melinda’s “bigger picture” ideas as Libertarian. There is a very Libertarian spirit in Christianity, and it is not a bad thing.

As to your other comments, you’re not making much sense to me. If you have not read the many books that teach physical discipline of young children with a rod as commanded by God, then you simply are not very well-read on this topic. They have sold collectively millions copies, all bought by evangelicals and fundamentalists. I was raised on them, and on their teachings, and paddled my own four children for many years, until I took the time to study the Scriptures for myself.

You can falsely accuse me of trying to “undermine” the efforts to pass the PRA, but you are falsely accusing a brother in Christ of lying. I am fully for the PRA and believe the issues I am raising should be a part of the dialog. I truly believe if the PRA somehow morphs into the “Parental Right to Spank Amendment,” it’s over. It will be just like the Scopes trial, and Christianity will be ridiculed into hiding for another 50 years while our rights are further eroded because we are out of the picture. You don’t have to believe that, but I do, and I will continue to have a voice, whether you agree with it or not.

I have read many, many books on the topic but none of them characterize that God wants you to use rods on “little children.” Please let me know which books you are referring to that instruct parents to spank little children as described in this blog (1 year olds). Spanking, i.e, repeatedly striking a one or 2 year old child to the rear manually or with belts/paddles, or something similar. I’d like to do research on those churches and authors. If you look above, 2 year olds were mentioned and then there started a discussion about that and abusing poor little children.

In this blog, I see references to infants and this is my concern when I spoke of conjuring up cartoonish mental images that big, bad parents are inflicting violence on unsuspecting little children. Are you saying that you were hit with objects when you (Christian) were young (or without objects) as referenced in this blog with references to 1 year old children? Are you speaking of a tap, or taking a belt or hand and giving several repeated swats to a little child? Which church/churches are trying to become a part of supporting the PRA with these type of views on spanking? Which authors have supported spanking in this manner?

Hi Everyone,

Okay, first, I’m too longwinded, I know. I’ve likely made grammatical errors. Am I overzealous? Perhaps. But I’m also a writer who’s fond of a good debate and I do find this topic interesting. Really, I’m a bit of an outsider to this issue, as spanking has never personally been a part of my life (family or origin or in my own offspring).

I probably do “have “issues (don’t we all? ;), but not around “spanking.” I come from a huge family and a long line of non-spankers, so in some sense, I just don’t “get” it. With all the various personalities in my family and extended family, there isn’t one criminal, despite the lack of spanking. In fact, quite the opposite is true in every single case.

But that’s anecdotal, anyway. So are the stories I’ve heard from friends who *were* spanked, yet I find them troubling. They remember the spanking. They remember knowing it was coming and trying to block it with their hands and having hurt hands or squirming and having the hand or belt hit their thighs (and then the weird contradictory “that hurt me” speech and the prayer). They don’t remember what they did or what valuable lesson they learned each time.

Maybe it was don’t touch the stove or don’t have a tantrum in Wal-Mart, but I suspect they could have learned those lessons without being hit.

MELINDA, on the studies, it’s easy to attack a study and often rightfully so – many are skewed. But you missed the point. I didn’t say I want to live in Denmark or anywhere else (even here is questionable); I was saying (with one example, and a quickie at that) that I’ve seen hundreds of studies that demonstrate that even basic “spanking” as you all define it is detrimental, but none that say children will become criminals, etc. from not spanking. I was saying I’m open to those, but they don’t seem to exist. Please show me to “third party” studies that say not spanking breeds criminals…I’ll read them.

On why I came on this site…I’m a homeschooler and received a link to the article from HSLDA. I had NO IDEA it was a pro-spanking site and no idea HSLDA was a pro-spanking organization (Bummer!). I’m clearly in the WRONG place. I’ll *try* not to post again (but it is a bit compelling).

LISA, I see the difference between your two examples. I see the difference between hitting someone and beating them to a pulp, too, yet I think both are wrong. Still, when I see or hear of people like you who “spank” a two-year-old hours later for being persistent / disobedient / crying in a Wal-Mart, it makes me feel sad for your child. It blows me away that people think that behavior (yours, not your child’s) is okay. I’m glad you care so much for the shopping experiences of the strangers in the Wal-Mart, but perhaps your focus is a wee off.

MELINDA, FYI, “spanking” in the dictionary, is “to slap on the buttocks with a flat object or with an open hand, as for punishment” (current American Heritage Dictionary and similar in current Websters). “Slap” is defined as “blow,” “smack” or “hit.” If people can delude themselves into thinking spanking is not a form of hitting, I cannot reason there. Really, you do it to hurt the child, right? If it didn’t hurt, you wouldn’t get your “point” across.

Oh, and yes, I would also call some forms of time-out that I’ve seen emotional abuse.

So the current debate, unfortunately, appears to have no solution. We all draw the line of what we think is abuse in a different place. I believe *all* hitting is abuse. I find the justifications parents use for it weak. So therein, we have no common ground.

Do we have a common ground on this legislation? Probably not there, either. I could compromise with “only if an object is used” or “only if it left a mark,” but there is an emotional scar, despite the formerly abused believing they “deserved it” or that they turned out “okay.” I think our government is very crazy on many issues and want a much smaller government involvement, but not compared to some of the people against it. Herein lies the problem I have.

DON’T GIVE UP OUR RIGHTS: In the three states I’ve lived in, it is legal to gently restrain a child to prevent them from harm, e.g. if they might run into the street, hurt themselves during a tantrum, fall from a ledge, etc. What states is this illegal in (be specific, please)? Anything beyond that, I would agree is abuse. I have to admit, I loved when you said, “my children were not allowed to do the things Christie described above,” because that made my point. I didn’t *allow* or *disallow* them to do any of the examples I used…I just worked with them and stopped them without hitting them. I used my words and they worked like a prayer.

LISA said, “Well I am not sure what genius level your kids are but when I tell my 14 month old no stove, hot he looks at me like I am from mars!” Love this too. Okay, okay, my children ARE extremely bright, but I don’t think it’s nice to hit the dumb ones, either. (comic relief anyone?)

Oh, I have three children, but I did have four, so I qualify as a “ninny,” but I’m an ex-non-ninny.

Anyway, the focus here seems to be the *parental right to hit one’s children*, based on some invisible fears that they’ll turn into monsters and/or based on misquotes and misinterpretations from the Bible. It’s not a parental right to which I aspire, nor is it a right I need, but I’ve enjoyed the mental gymnastics.

Lastly, do I think Lisa should face charges based on her behavior? I don’t know. Maybe the authorities should just spank her — and then hug her and pray with her, of course.

Well first of all when he threw that tantrum, he knew it was wrong. and I lived 15 minutes from walmart, not hours away as you somehow came up with. Also when we got home before I spanked him for his behavior I talked to him and asked him if he remembered what he had done and he said yes and so he got spanked because in this family there are consequences to bad behavior and it isnt a soft gentle voice of reason.

Second of all my child is nowhere near dumb just because words dont hold alot of meaning just yet.

Thirdly you are very judgemental for a christian.

lastly you can interpret the word of God however you like but when I interpret it, it says that I am to lovingly spank and guide my child. and I would never try to speak for God the way you have.

Fact is we as parents have the right to make those decisions not you or anyone else. just us. I am not ragging on you for not spanking. You say you never have? well the bible talks about spanking and says that if you dont then you hate your child. so after they were almost grown (16 as you say) how come you didnt spank them then?

I know they truth of what the word says for me and I know that God is blessing me for the choices I make to lovingly discipline my kids. And you or anyone else have no right to say otherwise just because you dont agree.

Lisa, first, I’m sorry about saying “hours later.” My error. Ten seconds or ten hours wouldn’t really matter in my eyes anyway.

I didn’t call your child “dumb.” I made a solid point about your “genius” comment.

Thirdly, you just called me “judgmental.” Is that not judging?

Yes, I’m imperfect in many ways. I’m okay with that and always striving to improve.

I’m definitely not speaking for God. I’ve just never seen the word “spank” in any Bible I’ve ever read no have I seen instruction to hit the child in the Bible (although I’ve seen some *really* nutty of many interpretations here and in books – and so try to err on the safe side). The references I’ve read are the “spare the rod” and other guidance passages, which I believe have nothing to do with hitting children.

Whenever I think I’m for less government, I realize there are so many cases where the defenseless need some sort of protection from the wackos (including parents, unfortunately) out there. I’m not saying you, Lisa, so you don’t need to be defensive, but I also wouldn’t want you watching my children. You wouldn’t want me watching yours, either, because I wouldn’t be able to conjure up a justifiable reason to spank them.

But if you insist in using God as your excuse, show me a Bible passage you are SURE says or INDUBITABLY means to hit a child with your hand or an object on the buttocks. I challenge you.

It does not exist.

As an aside, anyone having problems where words in the middle of the sentences are missing when they comment here?

Okay, and to really throw a wrench in things, here are some scriptures from the King James version. Here, if we want to be literal, no “pop” on the rear will do…

Proverb 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Proverb 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

So, if we take it literally, we MUST BEAT our children with THE ROD - and no worries, they will not die. Besides, if you don’t BEAT them with THE ROD, they’ll go to hell, and we certainly don’t want to add hellfire and damnation to Wal-Mart indiscretions.

If we view the Bible in parables and the rod as the wooden rod sheepherders used, however, there is room for loving guidance that doesn’t require hitting.

I think some people CHOOSE to interpret it differently because they PREFER to hit - either it is “comfortable” to them because they grew up with it (and children who were hit tend to enter into the same patterns) or it is less work for them.

CHRISTIAN, I totally am with you. I’m glad you kept writing, because it definitely added clarity to your points — Yes, we’ll be viewed as the nutty born-agains and the whole parental rights movement will be labeled accordingly if we equate spanking with parental rights and also make it a Biblical issue.

LISA,

Can I ask you to open your mind to a few possibilities for the scenarios you presented?

A 14-month-old touching a stove. Please try to get into your child’s mind. There is a beautiful, God-given, innate curiosity. The child is exploring the kitchen, learning what everything feels like, smells like and looks like. Suddenly, the trusted parent hits the child (you call it spank, the child feels hit) — despite any ill intent on the child’s part, despite the child having no idea where it is coming from, despite the child’s inability to form concrete cause-and-effect rationales following the swat.

Despite the fact that if you accept your God-given duty to guide children, such guidance could include, I dunno, watching the child, baby proofing, redirecting for a short time (really, it is SO SHORT with babies) until they can understand reason.

For your Wal-Mart scenario, he KNEW it was wrong? Consider this: Most 2-year-olds melt down when they are tired, hungry, sick (or getting sick) or over-stimulated (and “get into things” when bored or not closely watched).

Now there is reality. You needed to go to Wal-Mart and you needed to take your child with you. However, there is a ton of stimulation there and if you couple that with tired or hungry, parents know those situations can result in meltdowns, tantrums or atypical behavior (poor impulse control, whining, etc.). You said, it was “very shocking because he is usually very sweet and obedient.” Might he have been tired, hungry or over-stimulated? Or just sick of being in YOUR store?

Maybe you missed the cues. Maybe he didn’t get enough sleep. If this was “very shocking,” then JUST MAYBE you should have given him the benefit of the doubt, especially if he didn’t have the words yet to explain for himself.

You are expecting adult behavior from a child before it is developmentally appropriate and punishing the child for just being a child.

If that’s not child / baby abuse (psychological, emotional and physical), you’re all right, I don’t know what is.

Christe, I think you are right, you DO NOT belong on this site! At least we can agree there!

It is a shame that you cannot see what legislation like “banning spanking” could do to parental rights across the board. I guess you do NOT value your rights to parent your own child. Maybe it is easier for government to do it for you!

I ask you this, where do you feel government should draw the line in telling parents how to parent? At what age are you going to turn your children over to the government to raise???

Let me also clarify a few things for you, first, when my children were young (they are way too old to spank now)I did give them a SWAT, ONE SWAT on the bottom when they did dangerous things or when they disobeyed. If they were going to touch something dangerous such as an electrical outlet or stove, I would TAP or for your benefit SLAP their hand and tell them “No Touch” and guess what, they listened!!

Over the years I have received COUNTLESS compliments on how polite, loving and well behaved my children are!!!! MANY, MANY people have said that they wish all parents would discipline their children better because it would make the world a better place! In fact, teachers have said they wish they could SPANK or once again for your benefit HIT some of the children in their class because those kids need it!

No one is talking about BEATING or severly hurting a child here, because that is abuse! We are talking about discipline. It is up to each individual family to decide how they will handle discipline within their own families!!! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD….GOVERNMENT should NOT be the one to decide these things!!! If they start doing that then we as parents have LOST all freedom, all people will lose their freedom. DO you get that????? Get over your self and start thinking clearly.

I am now convinced that you are here to undermine the parental rights legislation!

DON’T GIVE UP OUR RIGHTS:

I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but you clearly do not know the literature. I am talking about popular books that advocate spanking, and rodding, of infants and young children. I don’t like to name names in a post where the guilty are not able to respond, so you’ll just have to do you own research and reading. One is an international organization that teaches in churches. Another is a book that has sold probably a million copies. Another is a book that has sold around a half million. And there are several others, all advocating using punitive, physical discipline (rods, paddles, spoons, whatever) on children as young as infants. Just go to any homeschooling book fair, and these books are all in easy reach. They are the books that have largely defined “discipline” for the homeschool movement, and frankly that I’m quite sure have influenced most of the discussion on this thread. I don’t know how you could be a homeschooler and not know about these highly influential books within the movement.

EVERYONE ELSE:

My point still stands: If HSLDA allows the PRA to become the “Parental Right to Spank Amendment,” the debate is over, and we will lose. Not only will we lose the battle for the PRA, but we will lose our voice in the American political system, probably forever. I hope someone at HSLDA is reading these posts and