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Privacy From Parents

Posted by: admin on May 12th, 2008
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An In-depth Look at Article 16 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child

During our e-mail series on the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, a constant theme has been the recurring intervention of government power in the relationship between children and their parents. Broad discretion for the state is particularly prevalent in the Convention’s “freedom” provisions, which guarantee choices to children when it comes to expression, information, religion, and association.

Perhaps the most troubling of these “freedom” provisions is article 16, which stipulates that “no child shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy, family, home or correspondence.” More so than any other section of the Convention, article 16 invokes the power of the government in ways previously unseen and untested in America’s legal and political history.

Paradigm Shift

The key to understanding article 16 is found in its absolute language: no child is to have his or her right to privacy violated. According to American law professor Cynthia Price Cohen, article 16 “uses the strongest obligatory language in the human rights lexicon to protect the child’s privacy rights.”

This is a strong break from American law. According to Catherine Ross, writing in the University of Pennsylvania Journal of Constitutional Law, the concept of a “right to privacy” has been used within the American context to support limited reproductive freedom for children, including the right to receive information, counseling, and contraceptives without parental consent or notification. But even in such cases, the Supreme Court has attempted to draw some sort of balance between the privacy rights of the child and the role of parents in raising and directing their children: never has the Court stated that children have an absolute right to privacy even from their parents.

Displacing Parents

In contrast, the “right to privacy” within the Convention is far broader than anything contemplated in American law or jurisprudence, bestowing an absolute right to privacy which, according to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child in their 2004 report on Japan, includes privacy in “personal correspondence and searching of personal affects.” This includes more than just a child’s diary or letters to a pen pal: it includes e-mails composed, websites visited, and a growing plethora of other means of communication with the outside world.

Law professor Bruce Hafen notes that this strong language makes little allowance for the role of adults who are unavoidably involved in a child’s private world – namely, the child’s parents. Scholar Barbara Nauck adds that when the responsibility of parents to “guide and direct” their children comes into conflict with the right of children to have privacy, it is highly questionable whether parents will have the lawful authority to interfere with the child’s privacy.

Only the First Step

On this basis alone, law professor Richard Wilkins has warned that article 16 has the potential to place the basic ability to discipline and monitor children – activities necessary for effective parenting – into serious doubt. In addition, the provision’s absolute guarantees could also be extended through state laws or the decisions of judges to include other “rights” guaranteed by the Convention – such as the freedom of religion, expression, or information – with devastating consequences to the authority and effectiveness of parents. It is the absolute, all-encompassing nature of article 16 that poses the real danger to both children and parents.

Please forward this message on to your friends and urge them to sign the Petition to Protect Parental Rights at http://www.parentalrights.org/petition.

Sources

Cynthia Price Cohen, The Role of the United States in Drafting the Convention on the Rights of the Child (1998): 34.

Catherine Ross, An Emerging Right for Mature Minors to Receive Information (1999): 261.

UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, Concluding Observations: Japan, CRC/C/15/Add.231 (2004)

Bruce Hafen and Jonathan Hafen, Abandoning Children to their Autonomy (1996): 472.

Barbara Nauck, Implications of the United States Ratification of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (1994): 700.

Richard Wilkins, et. al., Why the United States Should Not Ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child (2003): 421.

  • Thanks for posting this. When will we stop thinking that we have more wisdom than God? He designed the family… and the rod of correction. He knows best!

    Daniel
    May 12 at 11:29 am
     
  • Amen Daniel you are so right. I would never want to assume the right to go into someones home and tell them what is best for their child or family. I might venture an opinion when asked but thats it.

    We christians really need to take a strong stand against these “anti-parent” people!

    Lisa
    May 12 at 11:50 am
     
  • Thank you for informing us. In light of this horrifying ‘possibility’ my serious concerns about my kids having to attend public schools takes a back seat! We (christians) need to P.U.S.H. - pray until something happens!
    God help us.

    HumbleMom
    May 12 at 12:08 pm
     
  • So a child could be having “private” correspondence with a pedophile and the parents would be unable to do anything about it. I wonder if they would still be held responsible for the adverse outcome or maybe this is part of the intent, freeing up children for s*xual perversions? If the barriers of protection(parental care and supervision) are removed the wolves can move in.

    Colleen
    May 12 at 1:28 pm
     
  • Persecution is coming to American Christians. The real question to ponder is “Are you ready to obey God in the face of persecution?” I wonder if they will threaten us with taking our kids if we refuse to stop disciplining and parenting our children. Satan hates us. This is not big surprise. We need to prepare for the worst and pray for the best.

    Kathy
    May 12 at 1:28 pm
     
  • Did anyone ever see the show a few years back, either on Oprah or Dr. Phil (I can’t remember which…actually Oprah turns me off a lot now…too liberal), but it was featuring an older teen who had started using a minicam on his computer. He would be on his computer a lot, because he was very computer savvy. His parents gave him PRIVACY, and allowed him the freedom to use his computer however he chose.
    He became the unknowing victim of pedophiles who, after a period of time lured him into taking off his shirt in front of the camera, then his pants…Anyway, the person emailing him, was connected to a huge conglomerate of pedophiles, big time powerful sex offenders world wide, and they lured him to a “convention in Las Vegas (so he told his parents, a computer convention (he was only about 11 at the time…got his own plane ticket and everything, and the OK from his parents), flew to Vegas, was picked up by these guys and began the physical part of the sex trade.
    This boy was being paid ONLINE for sex acts, and began prostituting as a result of his PRIVACY given to him by his parents.
    This went on for YEARS. When he came on the show, he was blowing the whistle on thousands of men world wide, because in their payments online, he had the records of all the transactions…names, accounts, addresses, everything. This journalist investigator got involved in efforts to protect him and to record his story to save millions of other potential victims, and when they went to the FBI for help even the FBI turned out to be involved. SO HE WAS ON THIS SHOW BLOWING THE WHISTLE, AND WAS UNDERGROUND…BEING PROTECTED BY THIS JOURNALIST.
    The boy’s biological father took him at one point, down in Mexico, who was into heavy drugs and partying, and HE EVEN EXPLOITED HIM, when he found out how much money was being made with the sex trade industry and his son prostituting. So instead of the father helping him, guiding him to get out, he became part of it.
    His mother and step-father had no knowledge of this, for years, until he got a hold of the journalist who was one of the only people he could trust, who helped him to get out and get protection he couldn’t even get his parents involved because of the threats made to kill them.
    This whole thing could have been prevented….by invading his “RIGHT” to privacy.

    PEOPLE WAKE UP!!!! OUR WORLD IS GOING TO HELL!!!! BUT WE DO NOT HAVE TO BE A PART OF THE WORLD…COME OUT OF IT!!!

    Lisa W.
    May 12 at 1:41 pm
     
  • Yea i never understand parents who think their child just automatically gets to have privacy and that they (parents) dont have a right to set rules and guidlines becasue the child “deserves” privacy! what a load of crap!! My children get privacy when it is earned. That only means in the bathroom or dressing, doors are staying open in my house and tv viewing is monitored closely as well as no computers in anyones room ever!

    Obviously the liberal way of thinking is not working.

    Ps. I agree with not watching Oprah anymore. She is not a christian by any means and is just as liberal as they come.

    Lisa
    May 12 at 1:51 pm
     
  • my minor son had a baby, and becouse of too many private hours spent with an adoption attorney and his council and the mother of the baby, and her family, my son was coerced and put under duress to sign papers for the adoption agency to take the child, my grandaughter. I live in Charleston,S.C. and grandparents have no rights,even when it comes to being informed of events such as this. The mother of my grandaughter didn’t want her and didn’t want us to raise her either.

    Sharon Pierce
    May 12 at 2:34 pm
     
  • As long as I am responsible for my children, then I have a right to know everything going on. I am held legally accountable for their actions (as well as spiritually). It’s not only pedophiles to be concerned with. There are drug dealers and gang members who also want to claim our children (et. al.). Should we not be able to find out who is calling, coming by our house. We will have to wait in the other room while the children have a private conversation with “undesirables?” And, although we are paying for the child’s healthcare, are we to be sent from the physician’s room so that they can get prescriptions for medications. The right to privacy means that we will also be limited in their medical information, that almost all parents are responsible for (when a family has it). We must be vigilant and I agree P.U.S.H. We must vote for representatives (Republican, Libertarian, or Democrat) who SUPPORT our Christian beliefs to stop the eradication of the family and parental rights.

    Don’t Give Up Our Rights
    May 12 at 4:37 pm
     
  • The government is getting more and more information about us and they are trying to take more away from us. There’s now a brain chip with radio frequency, cameras at corners, satellites that take pictures (Is your house on Zillow with pictures from all angles????) Ron Paul asked in the debate, “What’s going on?” I do, too.

    Don’t Give Up Our Rights
    May 12 at 4:39 pm
     
  • One only has to look at the prison population to realize what the lack of parental supervision has netted. I’m 86 years old, in my day parents and teachers were the true disciplinarians. We left our doors unlocked without any worries. At the current rate of crimes being committed, gangs roaming the streets and with laws prohibiting parental supervision, may God help our children. We must put action to our prayers or else our christian values
    will continue to evaporate.

    Noel Culpepper
    May 12 at 5:37 pm
     
  • I think my child has rights to “basic privacy” like changing their clothes, or when in the bathroom. But when they are in the rest of my house, they have no other privacy - it’s MY house, even their room and the stuff in it is just something I’m allowing them to use - all their stuff is a privilage that can be taken away until they have aged out or moved out.

    As for privacy with medical situations - if I have to pay for it then it should not be private to me. If my insurance pays for it, then it should not be private to me because I pay for the insurance. I think this should apply to school/college data too - I know parents paying for the classes their kids attend and the school will not send grades to the parents, only to the kids. There should be some sort of law that says if you pay for something you get full disclosure on what you’re paying for.

    JD
    May 13 at 12:17 am
     
  • Oh, but your kids will get privacy anyway. Weren’t you ever kids? They get birth control and abortions easily — legal or not — if their parents are too scary to go to and if they can’t trust the doc not to tell the parents.

    Lisa
    May 13 at 12:54 am
     
  • Yes, the government will some day rule our lives - the Bible tells us that. I am part of a group called Prayer for America. If you want to pray for us as a country and believe God will make positive changes, join them! One of the things we are praying for is that the U.S. pull out of the UN. But even with that, there are people in office who would like to see parents have no rights. We homeschool our children and are part of a legal organization which promotes watching like a hawk all new legislation, called the Homeschool Legal Defense Association.

    I had a foster child who used MySpace. He has issues with sexual deviancy ANYWAY. He thought one of the people was from his school because he asked them and they provided a name, and it was the name of a student. But when we called the police because of what our foster child was doing on MySpace, he told him his “friend” was a known pedifile which accesses school records to produce a name the student is familiar with. His name is Donial. (Denial - how cute! Barf!) Check your children’s my space account or better yet shut is off! Our former foster son will now not be able to log on until the age 21.

    We need to be mindful of how our children have access. He was using the public library and school to access porn - and the library was aware of it!

    We are not alone, but must UNITE in prayer for God’s movement.

    Pray for our children, pray for America, pray for our government, and pray for pediphiles who want our children.

    Let God be praised, and continually be in His house. That means prayer as well as assembly!

    Ministermom
    May 13 at 8:06 am
     
  • I don’t see how anything email related can be considered ‘private’. We all need to teach our children that privacy does not exist online AT ALL. Then talk to your child, every day, without judgment.
    Christ is Risen!
    Truly He is Risen!

    Daisy
    May 13 at 10:48 am
     
  • Realize, this privacy issue is bad for schools as well. The school I taught in last year has a no tolerance policy for inappropriate use of the internet in order to protect the children while they are there. This would also take away the public school’s authority to monitor computer use! Not to mention monitoring the bathrooms!

    Theresa
    May 13 at 3:26 pm
     
  • I was a youth and children’s minister for 4 years, and it never ceased to amaze me how comfused parents were on the bounderies of parenting.

    I always tell parents that they need to monitor their kids internet activities. Parents need all their kids passwords, and the ability to access their e-mail, blogs, myspace’s, etc. Do they need to read everything all the time? Probably not, but they need to be able to. The “right” to privacy is not a right at all, it is a privaledge. Privacy is earned like trust. Parent need to be able to protect their children.

    Most parents prefer to err on the side of (they think) caution.

    They will say their kids CAN’T use internet websites like myspace, and think they have skirted the issue. Kids do it anyway though, and the parents have not only lost control, they have lost their kids respect because they made a rule that was “made to be broken” and never followed up. This is very dangerous.

    Kids need bounderies and discipline. Do we really want to confuse them more by not giving them that?

    I met a parent who wanted to try throwing a glass of ice water on her 11 year old when he raised his voice to her. I thought it sounded silly and I told her so. She did it. Her son was offended and very confused. It successfully hurt his feelings, made him feel like what he said didn’t matter to her, and gave him a justifiable excuse for calling her “crazy,” but it certainly proved an ineffective form of discipline.

    2nd Generation Homeschooler
    May 13 at 4:23 pm
     
  • It is time for the American People to wake up and to take back our country as well as to get control of our Government. I will go to jail for disiplining my grandchildren as their parents would. I answer to a much higher power than the idiots we have in our government. It is time to take America back and ship out the UN and other losers.

    Pen
    May 14 at 4:16 pm
     
  • We all better think of where we want to move to in 2009, after the dems take control by a 60 vote majority in the Senate. Thankfully, a 2/3 vote is needed to ratify the UNCROC (it’s a crock alright!) but that has not stopped idiotic democratic legislatures from enacting legislation that mirrors this travesty of an international law.

    I’m thinking Mexico. School attendance is not closely monitored, and you can find places where the laws they do have are loosely enforced. Either that or in the mountains of Montana, away from any civilization. Really there’s nowhere to run.

    I fully expect to encourage my children to remain single and not have any children of their own. It’s too dangerous to have children anymore.

    Hashbaz
    May 14 at 11:36 pm
     
  • Maybe we should just run for office to ensure our rights are protected.

    DGOUR
    May 15 at 12:36 am
     
  • Tell me about it DGUOR. And maybe when or if one of those liberal freaks takes the presidents seat christians will wake up and do something. And next term we will have another christian in office.

    Lisa
    May 15 at 2:41 am
     
  • I know my view might be controversial, but if you read the Bible, you will see it is true. Much of what we see with children’s rights runs right along with what we’ve seen with women’s rights. Pain is a great motivator, but now you cannot punish your own wife. Women and children both are being afforded more and more freedoms, refusing to submit to the head of the household. Even on this site…Shouldn’t these women be serving God, serving their husbands, caring for their families rather than putting their noses in these political issues? For thousands and thousands of years, women and children knew their places. Now women are having free sex, spouting liberalism and generally repeating the sins of Eve 10-fold. Where will it end?

    John Parrish
    May 15 at 12:58 pm
     
  • Well on both sides there are people who go to far as per the last two posts!

    Lisa
    May 15 at 6:52 pm
     
  • Well John, if you are the head of your household then why aren’t you paying attention to it instead of being on this blog! Shouldn’t you be off controlling your wife or something?

    Sorry buddy, but God gave women brains too and we have plenty to say about issues that will effect the parenting of our children! After all, isn’t it the women who are responsible for raising up the children?

    Melinda
    May 22 at 6:31 am
     
  • If the men were handling the political issues, and standing up as heads of the household, then maybe the women wouldn’t feel they had to protect their families. If there weren’t so many broken families that leave the women to the kids, maybe it would be a different story….. Your statement seems to say that men are doing their jobs and women should stay barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. Unfortunately, those days have passed. Women have to go and get jobs too. They play a vital role in taking care of the homes and children and should have a say. I personally agree that it SHOULD be the men standing up, taking charge, and handling the politics. But unfortunately, this society doesn’t afford the women such luxury. And we have to protect our kids. It doesn’t matter if we are parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles……….If we have children in our lives, we should be protecting the parents rights to raise our children. We are the ones who know the children in our lives, and know how to affectively raise them to be the adults they will want to be.

    To protect our babies
    May 22 at 3:11 pm
     
  • Let’s not fight - man vs. woman, spankers vs. non-spankers, etc., we have greater issues at hand…

    There are “meetings” on-going to take away our rights. Check out what happened last month…

    go to:

    globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8914

    for more information on what is really happening in the United States.

    All Americans must be vigilant about our rights. So much is going on. From our children, to religious rights, etc., our Constitution is being attacked on every end.

    I hope we all come together to protect our rights. When you give government control in one area, they will take as much as they can.

    And what happens when our Constitution is no longer the rule of our land when we join with all nations? Will we adopt another Constitution? Children are children, in need or our guidance. Only the Dodo bird left their offspring to others to raise (and they are not extinct). It’s important to learn from God’s creation.

    Don’t Give Up Our Rights
    May 23 at 12:16 pm
     
  • Sorry, for the typing error, the Dodo bird is now extinct.

    Don’t Give Up Our Rights
    May 23 at 12:18 pm
     
  • (It’s the cuckoo)

    Stan
    May 23 at 2:51 pm
     
  • Yes, it’s too bad we don’t live according to the biblical principles, where rebellious children could be killed, where dishonoring one’s parents was a capital offense, where women were to submit to their husbands in all things, where polygamy was the rule rather than the exception, where marrying a first-cousin was endorsed, where slavery was endorsed and regulated, where women kept their mouths shut in church…

    I don’t think anybody here really wants those things to be re-enacted — those who so claim I suspect of satirizing Christian views. Clearly, rather than regress to the barbaric biblical principles, we should continue to progress toward more humane principles, including a base recognition of the rights of a child.

    I am a parent as well, and I loathe the idea that my children may be able to hide certain aspects of their lives from me — like medical procedures, as an example — but by raising my children in a mutually respectful, trusting relationship, I hope they will be unafraid to consult me in their private affairs.

    It would be best if, and this is a mighty big if, humans in general could cease to consider children as property to be owned and “managed”, but instead consider them as collective heirs of human wisdom and values. Cease the biological aspect of parenting, and allow qualified (and background-checked) adults of all walks to participate in the collective raising of our children.

    Indeed, the proper analogy that our “Dodo” friend above intended to use (which truly involves the cuckoo), concerns letting another *species* care for one’s young (as does the cuckoo). True, interspecies child-care is rare, and I certainly do not endorse humans allowing other primates to raise our young (a la Mowgli), but INTRAspecies childcare is commonplace in the animal kingdom — and even within the realm of human parenting. It is perfectly acceptable to have a more qualified person “parent” one’s biological offspring, and if the surrogate parents are indeed *more* qualified, then the child benefits all the more.

    Sites such as this, which ostensibly promote healthy families and explicitly endorse the supercession of the “rights” of the parent over the rights of the child, are sickening in their crass selfishness. You claim to care about the children, but this is easily falsified — you only care about *your* children, or children of like-minded parents.

    Surely, you would agree that children in non-Christian (since the vast majority of you seem to be self-proclaimed Christians) home have the right to learn about Christianity? Surely, as with the example from the FLDS (also mentioned on this site), you agree that the children of that cult have the right to escape psychologically intact? Surely, you agree that a child with Type-I diabetes has a right to an insulin shot? Surely, you agree that a child of Jehovah’s Witness parents has a right to receive a life-saving blood transfusion?

    Quit parroting the so-called “rights” of parents (which are actually responsibilities, and which can be optimistically described as privileges), and start acknowledging that children do indeed have rights, and that while you want to preserve your “right” to raise your children as Christians, you must therefore also defend the Wiccan’s “right” to raise their child as a witch.

    Truly ironic here is the fact that most of the “Parental Rights” proponents are also “pro life”. You assert the fetus’ right to life as superceding the would-be parent’s right to decide, and once the child is born, you assert that this parent’s “right” to choosing the methods and implements of child-rearing supercedes the child’s right to lead a healthy life.

    You are fools.


    Stan

    Stan
    May 23 at 3:18 pm
     
  • Stan, you are the fool! Although I do appreciate your attempt at sounding intelligent. Unfortunately that attempt has failed!!

    Please explain how a CHILD is supposed to make intelligent, informed decisions for themselves?

    NOT GONNA HAPPEN my friend! They are children!! Do you expose your CHILD to EVERYTHING so they can be informed?? If that is the case you better be careful CPS might come and take your kids away because that may be considered abuse!

    And how about letting me or some other
    stranger come to your home an parent your child because we feel we can do a better job than you can! Or better yet, let’s go over seas and find someone in another country to come to your home and parent for you becaue their way is better than yours. Let’s even go one step further and make a LAW!

    Boy, now there’s a real intelligent idea!!
    Let’s not stop there though, we should also have another country come to the U.S. and change all of our laws and our constitution for us too while we are at it!

    Good job Stan! Your children will really appreciate that in the future!

    Melinda
    May 23 at 6:57 pm
     
  • Melinda
    May 23 at 7:37 pm
     
  • Wow Melinda, way to show off your reading comprehension skills — or the complete lack thereof.

    Nowhere did I suggest that a child was capable of making informed decisions. In fact, I think that children *are* capable of making informed decisions in many cases, depending on their stage of development, but I have not once argued this point, and I do not intend to do so now.

    Nor did I suggest that I expose my children to every available alternative to my own positions — this is likewise misrepresenting my position.

    Indeed, my position is actually that *collectively* we can agree on a set of principles by which we can *collectively* raise our children.

    No, you reactionaries needn’t fear “Big Government” — unless you fear yourselves. You, me, us — the people — are government, in this country, and as such every time whiners such as yourselves moan about “government” intrusion, you compain about your own doing.

    Again, however, I stress that you are looking at these situations through your own religious-colored lenses. I highly doubt many of you (or any of you, as it were) are even the least bit consistent in your own beliefs.

    Melinda [et al], let me ask you the following questions:

    1) Does a Type-I diabetic child have a right to an insulin shot, or do her parents’ beliefs that prayer is sufficient medicine supercede?

    2) Does a child of Jehovah’s Witness parents have a right to receive a life-saving transfusion following extreme blood loss (as from a car accident), or do the rights of his parents to refuse transfusions supercede?

    3) Do Wiccan parents have a right to raise their child to become a witch, preventing her from attending a Christian church if she so wished?

    Well?

    The argument here is not over whether society should intervene on a child’s behalf over abusive/negligent parenting, but it’s *when* society should intervene. WE ALL AGREE THAT THERE ARE TIMES IN WHICH SOCIETY IS OBLIGATED TO INTERVENE.

    We only quibble about the details. You people seem to be minimalists here, and seem to take an isolationist view (as with the U.S. in World War II) with regard to possible child mistreatment. You are as Holocaust-deniers.

    Wake up and recognize the rhetoric you spread. Read your own propaganda, and consider the consequences for children in non-Christian families. Think of the atrocities you will have helped to commit if your proposed legislation actually sees the light of day (pray all you want, but there is no way that will ever even get put to a vote).

    Do you really want to be complicit in the genital mutilation of an American-born Muslim girl?

    THIS IS WHAT THIS SITE ADVOCATES.


    Stan

    Stan
    May 23 at 11:18 pm
     
  • WOW STAN, it seems that YOUR reading comprehension skills are a bit lacking too! Go back and read what parentalrights.org is really about!

    You are not fooling anyone Stan, you are clearly here to bash Christians and their beliefs.

    You haven’t contributed one thing to this blog that is worth debating. You are missing the point on everything.
    Maybe it’s your lack of comprehension skills Stan, maybe you need to brush up on that before posting again!!
    Or maybe you are lacking parenting skills and need help from MOTHER GOVERNMENT to help you raise your children. Either way Stan, I have no intention on wasting any more of my time on you. You are a hopeless, helpless lib! Whine, whine, whine!

    Melinda
    May 24 at 10:06 pm
     
  • Yes, Melinda, you are so superior in every way. I’ve read enough of your posts to see that your modus operandi is to support anyone who proclaims unabashed Christian values, specifically biblical literalists, and to resort to name-calling and other ad hominem attacks against anyone who dissents from these views.

    You even practice this against fellow Christians, on some of the threads I’ve read, and even after this is pointed out to you, you refuse to apologize or to change your ways.

    As to this site and its aims, I *have* read it. I am the kind who reads Privacy Policies completely before signing up on a website. I am the kind who reads any contract or Terms of Agreement I might need to sign to receive some service.

    I pay attention.

    Although I find Christianity to be as repulsive as any other exclusive religion, I do not seek to bash it out-of-hand, and I don’t believe I have anywhere done so. Instead, I seek here to remind you all that although you are predominantly Christians, your proposed legislation would provide equal protection to every other religious practice involving parenting. This is a truth that you all seem perfectly willing to ignore.

    Believe it or not, I have my Libertarian views, but yes, to the vast majority of you I will be seen as an extreme liberal. I have no problem with this. My political positions have no bearing on whether or not I am a parent, and whether or not my contributions are legitimate in this forum. The difference between us is primarily that I promote the rights of children whereas you, especially Melinda, deny them.

    Rather than address any point I’ve made, you have done nothing other than to resort to warrantless personal attacks. If your position is so impervious, illustrate this by defending it.

    Do you deny that your legislation would protect the Austrian man who locked his children in a makeshift dungeon? He was the parent, after all. What wrongs did he commit?


    Stan

    Stan
    May 25 at 3:48 pm
     
  • Stan, there are ALREADY laws in place to deal with people like the man in Austria.

    The parental rights legislation will not change those laws. Do some more research Stan!

    Also Stan, if you could go back and read ALL of my posts (Washington Times Op-Ed on Banning Spanking), you would have seen that I DID apologize, even though my comments were in response to a personal attack on me!

    But I will tell you now, I have NO intention to apologize to you. You are what you are and I am just more willing than others to point that out!!

    Melinda
    May 25 at 8:24 pm
     
  • Are there? If a parent chose to lock up his children in a makeshift dungeon here in the U.S., after your proposed legislation had been enacted, would that parent be guilty of any crime if the situation were “brought to light”, so-to-speak?

    Nevermind the incest, which we’re both aware is already against the law, but consider only the locking in the cellar. Is that currently against the law, and would it be against the law if the PRA were enacted?

    What of the Neumanns? Are you familiar with *that* travesty? Do you defend those parents for choosing prayer over an insulin shot?

    My point is simple. You seek to protect parental “rights”, and, as I’ve said, this cause is well-meaning and indeed noble, but you seem unable to recognize that doing so will necessarily also protect the “rights” of sub-standard, even abusive, parents as well.

    Under the guise of religious freedom, you would allow parents to subject their children to certain types of abuse, including protecting them from being culpable in crimes such as those which befell young Madeline Kara Neumann.

    If you’re unfamiliar with that case, look it up.

    As to your name-calling MO, where do you think I discovered it? I *did* read the *entire* spanking thread, and all I saw from you was personal attacks, followed by reluctant apology when the victim pointed it out, and subsequent further personal attacks — none of which were in any way justified, even as retributative.

    It doesn’t bother me, I couldn’t care less if you call me names, Mrs. Random Internet Person, but it does your position no good to engage in such petty behavior, and makes you appear to be childish.

    Anyway, if you insist that you are innocent of tossing out personal attacks against “Christe” on that thread, consider yourself acquitted. It matters not. Rather, if you please, read and respond to my posts with reasoned responses of your own. Despite your ad hominem rhetoric, I shall endeavor to participate in a constructive dialog.


    Stan

    Stan
    May 25 at 8:59 pm
     
  • Okay Stan who else on this blog is having a dialog with you????

    Maybe they too are sick of being insulted for their religious beliefs by you!

    GO back and read the posts again Stan, it was Tiffany that started the personal attack and I finished it! I did apologize to the best of my ability at the time and I DID mean it.
    I never attacked Christe. I admit I was harsh, but I NEVER attacked her!

    BTW, glad to know I’m getting under your skin a bit Stan!! :-)

    Melinda
    May 25 at 9:40 pm
     
  • Stan, if it’s the cuckoo bird, thanks. It’s been over a decade since I read up on the birds.

    I do advocate staying out of other people’s homes to meet my own ideas of child-rearing. As an officer, I went into many homes and saw things that I personally do not agree with, or found repulsive. But, they were not breaking the law. This is important to remember because we are not going to agree in many areas. There’s a lot of intolerance in America, and that’s very sad.

    There are parents who use practitioners instead of traditional medicine. There are parents who do not agree to blood transfusions (and there are medical alternatives now). Is this breaking the law? No, it is not. Legislators enacted these laws. The people voted for the legislators.

    If I am paying for medical bills, I certainly expect to have full disclosure. Further, if I am raising my children, then I need all information to make informed decisions about the direction of my children’s lives. If I don’t have access to their grades, then how can I assist with college planning? If they are dying, how can I prepare for the funerals or home health care? If they are abusing drugs, how do I go about placing them in the appropriate facility if they have demanded privacy?

    I support parents, and not just of Christian backgrounds. I support legally raising children in love.

    I cannot speak for all parents who support the PRA. But, the families I have been blessed to fellowship with in many states are loving, patient, and kind. There are always exceptions (and you find them in atheists homes as well). However, I cannot agree to strip away more rights for the exception. This is not the basis of our Constitution.

    Don’t Give Up Our Rights
    May 29 at 11:33 pm
     
  • I was reading some of the above comments (that finally seemed to mellow out).

    Yes, there are laws about unlawful restraint. These type of laws are usually unfamiliar to those who do not deal on a daily basis with the law.

    To claim religious freedom, there has to be a history of the practice for the courts. The prosecution is equipped to handle interviewing and cross-examining for this issue.

    Child protective workers also are trained in these areas (determining if parents really are following a religious practice).

    Enforcing laws are not difficult if properly trained. Once I wrote for slow speed and a defense attorney hadn’t bothered to read the law before coming to court. The prosecutor and defense attorney had to look up the elements in the court room. All the elements were in my narrative that met the law. I used a code once about lending a vehicle to another person unlawfully. The prosecutor didn’t know about that law either (and had to read it in the courtroom to proceed).

    I have said this before, that is, the PRA will be no problem to officers and caseworkers who know how to do their job. And, if they do not, then the PRA is not going to make a difference anyway. If you’re inept, you’re inept - incompetent. I don’t want to have my rights unprotected because someone doesn’t know how to do their job.

    It is good to look at the PRA so that the rights we want protected are what we want and the bondage of unnecessary legislation is not an issue.

    Thanks for posting questions to consider.

    Don’t Give Up Our Rights
    Jun 3 at 11:39 am
     
  • Stan, I absolutely loved all your comments. I so agree with everything you say. Thank you, there is still some sensibility in the U.S. I am glad someone is more concerned about children’s welfare than sickening parental rights that can harm children severely.

    Horrified
    Jun 20 at 3:37 pm
     
  • I am sure many of the parents on this site/blog are very dedicated and loving parents.

    But I don’t see why a good parent should fear children’s rights. No children’s rights advocates want to destroy the parent-child relationship or prevent a good parent from fulfilling their responsibilities for the good of the child.

    Children’s rights are needed to protect children from bad parenting, not to prevent good parenting.

    Not respecting a child’s privacy rights is bad parenting. I see no good reason why privacy rights necessarily lead to disastrous results.

    If parental intervention is necessary to safeguard the child’s well-being, no children’s rights prevent them from doing so.

    Horrified
    Jun 22 at 5:58 am
     

   

   

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